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I'm all in for epic books, just no longer a fan of epic series because they too often just repeat the same beats over and over again. I've recently started re-r

I'm all in for epic books, just no longer a fan of epic series because they too often just repeat the same beats over and over again. I've recently started re-reading The Wheel of Time books, and the first one is still one of the most amazing fantasy novels ever, but mid-way through the second novel I couldn't help but feel like Rand Al Thor isn't moving forward and just being naive even worse than someone well into the heroes journey should be. Same for The Sword of Truth. And don't get me started on Dune, even acknowledging that it went more into philosophy. No offense to anyone that likes the later books in any of those series, but as far as I'm concerned, I've just kept the first ones. Stuff like A Song of Ice and Fire avoids that because it isn't afraid to move the plot to other characters, though of course, we'll probably see the heat death of the universe and the gold master release of Star Citizen before the Winds of Winter releases. Ken Follett is probably one of the best in the genre because he does different things. Pillars of the Earth is an amazing book, and he didn't turn it into a 6-book series or something that just drags on and on and on. So kudos to him for resisting the temptation there! (EDIT: Ah, turns out that I completely missed that he did. That's what I get for not checking.)

Swenrekcah 3y ago
> Pillars of the Earth is an amazing book, and he didn't turn it into a 6-book series or something Just in case you or anyone else is unaware, he did write two others in the same 'universe' and their construction is very similar. That is not a complaint however, I thoroughly enjoyed all of them!
- davely 3y ago
  And a new one in the series comes out tomorrow, advancing the plot to sometime in the 1700’s. (For what it’s worth, I’ve genuinely enjoyed the books and look forward to reading it.) His Century trilogy is a good read, too. Follows 5 families from before World War I, to the 1980s [1]. [1] https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/AO8/the-century-trilogy https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/AO8/the-century-tr...
Wistar 3y ago
Pillars of the Earth is one of my all-time favorite epic tales.
prennert 3y ago
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pillars_of_the_Earth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pillars_of_the_Earth 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Without_End_(Follett_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Without_End_(Follett_nov... 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Column_of_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Column_of_Fire 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evening_and_the_Morning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evening_and_the_Morning He does move characters on, because time moves on. Things get bigger, but themes remain very similar in at least the first 3 books. Similar to your description of The Wheel of Times books, I found the Pillars of the Earth very good, but the sequels were less exciting (I still read books 2 and 3 and bought the 4th one).
xeRTRex 3y ago
I love Pillars of Earth too, and he has turned it into a series (the Kingbridge series) with the fifth book expected this year. I've read each book and overall enjoyed each, particular his detailed research attempting to accurately depict everyday life for each historical era, however it does feel like the same plot with new characters 200 years later with each release.
kurthr 3y ago
The one comment I'd make is that it's not just the order the books were written in, but also the order they're read in. I just happened to read Gibson's Count Zero (when it came out) before Neuromancer and found that I preferred it... because as you say themes repeat. I enjoyed both, though MLOverdrive not so much. Have you read the Expanse series? That seemed to have noticeably distinct themes through the second and third books, but I think based on style the authors split exposition and conclusion up.
gustavus 3y ago
If you are a fan of epic fantasy, might I suggest The Stormlight Archives, my favorite fiction series ever.
- nabogh 3y ago
  I haven't finished the series but the first book, The Way of Kings is my absolute favourite book of all time.
yoyohello13 3y ago
> no longer a fan of epic series because they too often just repeat the same beats over and over again I can't remember the specific phrasing, but I remember an interview or something with Ken Follett where he basically said "Your readers come to you for a specific reason, the key to success is the find a way to write the same story over and over again without it feeling stale."
plandis 3y ago
Rand is moving forward you can see it in his inner monologue as it shifts from the first two books In TEotW: Rand goes from claiming to be a farmer to doubting his place in the world, he struggles and overcomes obstacles. He goes from “Tam is my father!” to “Tam is my father?” In TGH: Rand knows what he is but is unwilling to accept it. Over the course of the book he adapts to being treated more like nobility and a leader and becoming accustomed to it this is particularly clear in his interactions with Huiron. He even forgets and tries to command the Shienarins when their commander, Ingtar is right there. I thought the parallel between Rands journey and the heron marked blade was also well done! Rand desperately tries to hold on to the heron blade as it’s his tie to Tam. As Rand goes through his journey he learns to use the blade and as he accepts who he is at the end of TGH, the blade, his last vestige of Tam as his father, is metaphorically and literally broken.
- tnecniv 3y ago
  I am about to finish my first time through the series (listening to the excellent audiobooks). And I agree with OP that somewhere in the second or third book, Rand annoyed with his slow character growth and refusal to accept that he was the Dragon. I think the second book is even my least favorite of the series. The early books are also somewhat repetitive in their structure: Rand goes on a quest and defeats a Forsaken at the end. However, the series starts to shift in a few ways not long after where the bulk of the books is about his allies on their quests scattered throughout the continent and they are far more interesting than Rand’s brooding. It also occurred to me in the last book or two that Rand’s slow growth may not be the most enjoyable to read but it is realistic — the story only spans two years or so and Rand has little time to actually process what is happening to him. He kind of acknowledges this in the last book, when Moraine remarks that the three boys she took out of the Two Rivers have grown up, and Rand says something to the effect: “no, only Perrin has, and when it comes to Matt and myself, I just hide it better.” There is also all the growth that you mention as well as his somewhat immature attempt to harden himself in preparation for The Last Battle and his final realization that strength does not come from suppressing all his emotions.
- tnecniv 3y ago
  To add: the heron-marked blade is used pretty well in other ways as well. For context for the unfamiliar readers perusing this thread: heron marks indicate a blade master — a titled earned by defeating one in single combat or by undergoing a rigorous training process over years. Rand is a farm boy given such a blade by his dad when he sets out on his journey, and he is surprised when he learns his father was a blade master because he was just a simple farmer that served in a war 20 years beforehand to satisfy his own desire for adventure. Rand feels he does not deserve to carry the sword but does it to honor his father. Even though he trains quite a bit, it is more a crash course than a proper pedagogy. He kills a blade master at one point but there are no witnesses so by tradition he feels he can’t claim the title. He carries this imposter syndrome across many of the books and obsesses over training with the sword. This continues until he is maimed in a way that hinders his ability to fight with the blade and, at roughly the same time a character points out that it doesn’t matter if anyone saw him defeat the blade master, he earned the title and should feel confident about it. In a lot of ways, this arc is a microcosm for his internal conflict about being the Dragon Reborn (the chosen hero of prophecy). He goes from not believing he could possibly be the Dragon, to obsessively trying to prepare himself mentally for his final confrontation with evil (he repeatedly says he must make himself as hard as steel), to eventually realizing that his own perception of what makes a Dragon / blade master is immature — both are just a men, with their own strengths and weaknesses even though they have dedicated their life to a purpose.
nawgz 3y ago
I would like to get you started on Dune, I personally felt it was an impressive series in its ability to expand scope continuously until a resolution fell out of the events that drove the expansion.

Swenrekcah 3y ago

> Pillars of the Earth is an amazing book, and he didn't turn it into a 6-book series or something Just in case you or anyone else is unaware, he did write two others in the same 'universe' and their construction is very similar. That is not a complaint however, I thoroughly enjoyed all of them!

davely 3y ago
And a new one in the series comes out tomorrow, advancing the plot to sometime in the 1700’s. (For what it’s worth, I’ve genuinely enjoyed the books and look forward to reading it.) His Century trilogy is a good read, too. Follows 5 families from before World War I, to the 1980s [1]. [1] https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/AO8/the-century-trilogy https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/AO8/the-century-tr...

Wistar 3y ago

Pillars of the Earth is one of my all-time favorite epic tales.

prennert 3y ago

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pillars_of_the_Earth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pillars_of_the_Earth 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Without_End_(Follett_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Without_End_(Follett_nov... 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Column_of_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Column_of_Fire 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evening_and_the_Morning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evening_and_the_Morning He does move characters on, because time moves on. Things get bigger, but themes remain very similar in at least the first 3 books. Similar to your description of The Wheel of Times books, I found the Pillars of the Earth very good, but the sequels were less exciting (I still read books 2 and 3 and bought the 4th one).

xeRTRex 3y ago

I love Pillars of Earth too, and he has turned it into a series (the Kingbridge series) with the fifth book expected this year. I've read each book and overall enjoyed each, particular his detailed research attempting to accurately depict everyday life for each historical era, however it does feel like the same plot with new characters 200 years later with each release.

kurthr 3y ago

The one comment I'd make is that it's not just the order the books were written in, but also the order they're read in. I just happened to read Gibson's Count Zero (when it came out) before Neuromancer and found that I preferred it... because as you say themes repeat. I enjoyed both, though MLOverdrive not so much. Have you read the Expanse series? That seemed to have noticeably distinct themes through the second and third books, but I think based on style the authors split exposition and conclusion up.

gustavus 3y ago

If you are a fan of epic fantasy, might I suggest The Stormlight Archives, my favorite fiction series ever.

nabogh 3y ago
I haven't finished the series but the first book, The Way of Kings is my absolute favourite book of all time.

yoyohello13 3y ago

> no longer a fan of epic series because they too often just repeat the same beats over and over again I can't remember the specific phrasing, but I remember an interview or something with Ken Follett where he basically said "Your readers come to you for a specific reason, the key to success is the find a way to write the same story over and over again without it feeling stale."

plandis 3y ago

Rand is moving forward you can see it in his inner monologue as it shifts from the first two books In TEotW: Rand goes from claiming to be a farmer to doubting his place in the world, he struggles and overcomes obstacles. He goes from “Tam is my father!” to “Tam is my father?” In TGH: Rand knows what he is but is unwilling to accept it. Over the course of the book he adapts to being treated more like nobility and a leader and becoming accustomed to it this is particularly clear in his interactions with Huiron. He even forgets and tries to command the Shienarins when their commander, Ingtar is right there. I thought the parallel between Rands journey and the heron marked blade was also well done! Rand desperately tries to hold on to the heron blade as it’s his tie to Tam. As Rand goes through his journey he learns to use the blade and as he accepts who he is at the end of TGH, the blade, his last vestige of Tam as his father, is metaphorically and literally broken.

tnecniv 3y ago
I am about to finish my first time through the series (listening to the excellent audiobooks). And I agree with OP that somewhere in the second or third book, Rand annoyed with his slow character growth and refusal to accept that he was the Dragon. I think the second book is even my least favorite of the series. The early books are also somewhat repetitive in their structure: Rand goes on a quest and defeats a Forsaken at the end. However, the series starts to shift in a few ways not long after where the bulk of the books is about his allies on their quests scattered throughout the continent and they are far more interesting than Rand’s brooding. It also occurred to me in the last book or two that Rand’s slow growth may not be the most enjoyable to read but it is realistic — the story only spans two years or so and Rand has little time to actually process what is happening to him. He kind of acknowledges this in the last book, when Moraine remarks that the three boys she took out of the Two Rivers have grown up, and Rand says something to the effect: “no, only Perrin has, and when it comes to Matt and myself, I just hide it better.” There is also all the growth that you mention as well as his somewhat immature attempt to harden himself in preparation for The Last Battle and his final realization that strength does not come from suppressing all his emotions.
tnecniv 3y ago
To add: the heron-marked blade is used pretty well in other ways as well. For context for the unfamiliar readers perusing this thread: heron marks indicate a blade master — a titled earned by defeating one in single combat or by undergoing a rigorous training process over years. Rand is a farm boy given such a blade by his dad when he sets out on his journey, and he is surprised when he learns his father was a blade master because he was just a simple farmer that served in a war 20 years beforehand to satisfy his own desire for adventure. Rand feels he does not deserve to carry the sword but does it to honor his father. Even though he trains quite a bit, it is more a crash course than a proper pedagogy. He kills a blade master at one point but there are no witnesses so by tradition he feels he can’t claim the title. He carries this imposter syndrome across many of the books and obsesses over training with the sword. This continues until he is maimed in a way that hinders his ability to fight with the blade and, at roughly the same time a character points out that it doesn’t matter if anyone saw him defeat the blade master, he earned the title and should feel confident about it. In a lot of ways, this arc is a microcosm for his internal conflict about being the Dragon Reborn (the chosen hero of prophecy). He goes from not believing he could possibly be the Dragon, to obsessively trying to prepare himself mentally for his final confrontation with evil (he repeatedly says he must make himself as hard as steel), to eventually realizing that his own perception of what makes a Dragon / blade master is immature — both are just a men, with their own strengths and weaknesses even though they have dedicated their life to a purpose.

nawgz 3y ago

I would like to get you started on Dune, I personally felt it was an impressive series in its ability to expand scope continuously until a resolution fell out of the events that drove the expansion.