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I moved states just before the return-to-office order at Amazon, so I quit
- thatgerhard 3y agoWe always assume these people are good employees that's leaving.. maybe Amazon knew you would quit if they made you come back to work ;)
- giarc 3y agoThat's what Scott Galloway has always said... if you are a really good employee, they will make an exception for you.
- escapedmoose 3y agoI’ve never heard of anyone getting an exception. Have you?
- zffr 3y agoPre-COVID, I knew of some examples at Apple
- aaomidi 3y agoThere are situations that you do not want to be the exception though. If google did forced RTO, my management chain would offer that sort of exception. I probably wouldn’t take it and just leave. Remote doesn’t work in companies that have such a top down pressure to not support remote workers. My prediction is more enshitification for Amazon.
- ecmascript 3y agoHorrible page to read from on mobile, but nonetheless what surprises me is that most people seem to just accept whatever rules management throw their way and start commuting again. If I were in a position that required me to go into the office I would resign asap.
- aflag 3y agoI think quitting is likely the most reasonable thing to do if you don't want to move back to the office, but the company does. I prefer to work in the office in close proximity to my colleagues. So, personally, I gravitate towards companies that want people in the office. People who don't like that should also try to pick places that work like that.
- tmdyn 3y agoOne of the issues is that some of us picked places that said they worked like that and they have been walking it back piece by piece. I accepted a job about a year ago that said all the right things about remote/hybrid and yet they’ve gone back on many of those statements. (E.g. people that live within 40 miles from an office need to go in even if they’re classified remote and nobody else in their team works in that office) I don’t live near any of their offices and fully expect I’ll be asked to move near one or lose my job eventually.
- escapedmoose 3y agoIf you’re a “remote worker” per your contract, that shouldn’t be an issue for you… unless your company refused to put that in the contract?
- tmdyn 3y agoIt’s in my offer letter but it’s not a contract. The joys of “at will” employment. I doubt my employer would do a Amazon/Grindr “move or else” on short notice but wouldn’t be surprised at a longer (6mo?) transition period.
- red-iron-pine 3y agoMost people don't have leverage or the ability to negotiate. And even if they did, the big orgs, your FAANGM types, set the scale; you're just working within it, to some degree. Your choice is A) 190k TCO and a commute, or B) nothing... but no commute. or C) getting the market average for whatever is going in Big City Kentucky, which is like 80k for an IT role. And they might still force you to do hybrid. RTO is dumb, but unless you're in the elite 5% of tech workers you're accepting whatever mgmt throws at you, or else you're hoping you're lucky enough to find a remote gig that's on par -- and that's rare.
- DueDilligence 3y ago[dead]
- tedivm 3y agoAny company that forces a return to office is going to lose some of their best employees, as those are the ones who will have the easiest time finding a better job. RTO is basically just a backdoor layoff, only they end up losing the people they should be desperate to keep. What's worse is there's no good reason for it, it's just a power play by execs who are kind of bad at their jobs.
- pawelwentpawel 3y agoWhile I do agree, I think that this might be too general to be correct in every case. I do wonder however if the COVID lockdowns and WFH made the remote work market worse. The amount of remote positions available skyrocketed but so did the amount of people wanting to work remotely. Now, the combination of layoffs and RTOs might make finding a remote job harder than it was before the pandemic - amount of remote jobs shrank and the remote talent pool grew. Would love to see some data / opinions on that.
- aflag 3y agoI could say the same about not making the move back to the office. Some of their best employees will prefer the office and will look for places where the culture is for everyone to be in the office. I think I'm not alone in dreading working from home and being by myself in the office is not much better. What I really want is to work with other people at the same place.
- tedivm 3y agoThe reality is it's easy to accommodate both. There are a ton of hybrid companies out there. If someone wants a desk in an office by all means give them one. Supporting both groups of people gives you the best talent pool to work with. People who demand their coworkers come into the office though- well, it's not something I've personally seen, but it would make me think the person is a bit of a control freak.
- cgeier 3y agoAt least for people who like to come to the office (like me), this is even worse than working from home. You still spend lots of times in meetings in front of your computer, can't take those meetings in person, often can't solve quick issues on the way to lunch, and can't socialize with the people you are working with (which leads to getting to know people much quicker which IMHO makes working with people a lot easier).
- helsinkiandrew 3y ago> I had no idea we'd be forced back into the office Sad story but I'm not sure this should have been much of a surprise given Amazons announcements, eg. this in February: https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/andy-jassy-update-on-amazon-return-to-office https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/company-news/andy-jassy-upd...
- tedivm 3y agoIf you actually bothered to read the article he makes it clear that he moved before any of those announcements, and that specific announcement you're linking to matches his timeline perfectly for when he started discussions with his leadership and when he started to actually apply.
- cowsandmilk 3y agoa) the article is about a female, not male b) the article claims the RTO order was in March, but as the linked blog post shows, it was mid-February
- helsinkiandrew 3y agoAccording to the article: > In March, less than a week after I moved, Amazon issued its RTO order. Jassy announced that he thought that return to the office was best for the company in February and that RTO timetable was being planned group by group and details would be "finalized in the coming weeks".
- tedivm 3y agoDo you really think that planning a cross country move only took them a week? That would be pretty damn impressive.
- helsinkiandrew 3y ago> Do you really think that planning a cross country move only took them a week? No, but it was clear from Jassy's announcement middle of February (presumably before she actually moved) that it was almost certain she would eventually be called back to the office, hence the headline/quote that she had no idea doesn't seem credible (below). I'm arguing she continued to move knowing that there would be a very high chance she'd be called to the office and was ready to quit anyway. > I moved states 5 days before we got the return-to-office order at Amazon, so I quit. I had no idea we'd be forced back into the office.
- tedivm 3y agoWeb archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20230925103638/https://www.businessinsider.com/i-quit-return-to-office-order-amazon-rto-2023-9 https://web.archive.org/web/20230925103638/https://www.busin...
- kelseyfrog 3y agoRTO is a day two mindset
- curiousgal 3y ago> stress-intolerance disorder I am sorry what?
- francisofascii 3y agoA bad viral infection can sometimes lead to a longer term stress intolerance condition. It is a real thing.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hef19898 3y agoIf you have that, impressive to have survived Amazon for longer than the on-boarding. I consider myself quite resistant to stress and pressure, and don't think I'd be able to survive that again. Good thing, I know I did once, and am in a comfortable position of not having to anymore.
- tr888 3y agoYeh, it doesn't exist
- a2800276 3y agoIt totally exists!!! I have a bullshit intolerance disability, which is very similar. I didn't even bother to apply to Amazon because of it.
- dsauerbrun 3y agodo they mean shingles? I am one of 3 people in their 30s that I know of to get shingles... all work in tech. seems like the disease meant for elderly people is becoming more common for young people... anecdotally at least
- malfist 3y agoAmusingly I managed to get shingles when I was in my 20s in college. I was about to lose (and did eventually) lose my scholarship and was basically not sleeping. Stressed to the max. I'm surprised Amazon isn't a shingles factory.
- mrvurt 3y ago[flagged]
- latenightcoding 3y agoI genuinely wonder if tech companies who cave in keeping WFH for good are just going to start hiring cheaper talent oversees.
- davidgerard 3y agoThink for a moment - if they could have done that, they would have been doing that already. If they aren't doing that, perhaps that isn't how things work in practice.
- civilized 3y agoDefinitely! Especially considering that companies were already outsourcing wherever possible before the pandemic.
- Clubber 3y agoThe oversea threat is tiresome. Companies who can hire overseas already do hire overseas.
- amelius 3y agoJust give people their own office, instead of putting everybody in an open space.
- schnebbau 3y agoI know a handful of people who quit their bigtech jobs since covid (because of RTO or other post-covid changes), and they all found it hard to find comparable jobs elsewhere. And while they won't openly say it, I think every one of them regrets it.
- 88913527 3y agoAre they missing the money or the environment? It could be both, but bigtech compensation is one of the few places left to create a solid balance sheet for a household, and that's first and foremost what bigtech offers to its employees.
- schnebbau 3y agoBoth I think. I know they all took huge comp cuts. Their new roles don't offer any stock which I think they all undervalued immensely. Plus workload and employer expectations/responsibilities increased.
- prakhar897 3y agoIt's a mixed bag really. I quit Amazon few months back. The pay was nice but the workload, stress and especially the politics was too much for me. I'm thankful that I quit early, since if I had gotten a promo, my family would never let me quit. nobody pays even near that much in India. Nowadays I think about how much wealthy I could've been. But I'm also happy not doing astronomical amount of work. Grass is always greener on the other side. :)
- throw1234651234 3y agoOhio tech here - juniors that leave for FAANG make more than architects in Ohio when counting total comp. Might as well get into the numbers: $180,000 - Amazon junior (total comp) $120,000 - 170,000 (usually straight salary) - Ohio architect with 20 years of experience It's a very big difference. Obviously a whole different conversation when getting to L5 or whatever. We in the flyovers like to lie to ourselves that "it's not that different" and that "the COL balances it out", but the answer is no, it really doesn't. Also, many of us work 12 hour days and manage a bunch of stuff outside of our role - managing juniors, hiring, helping marketing, etc, etc. A lot wonder if it's easier to be an FTE at FAANG because that seems like it might be "just do YOUR job". P.S. I do believe there isn't a huge skill gap a lot of the time, more of what people want to do. Some people here have been at FAANG, I have seen a lot go to FAANG, and so on. It is probably a higher average at FAANG though, with the whole bell curve shifted right a bit. PSS If anyone has personal experience going from one of these to the other, let us know how it went for you. It seems pretty rare since there is the pay cut on one side and the leetcode hard interviews and going to the office on the other + moving and commuting 40 minutes+ every day.
- steveBK123 3y agoThere are job tiers, especially if you have two working spouses, where full RTO for one if the other can stay remote could mean it's cheaper just to have one spouse stop working. Another factor is always housing. My spouse is on a team with a bunch of people that essentially relocated out of commute range during COVID. If you don't need to be within 45min train of SF/NYC, you can save 25-75% on housing, and probably have lower income tax rate too. A lot of these people also bought housing at 3% mortgage rates which would need to be replaced with a 7% mortgage. $200K in say PA outside Philly or CT outside Greenwich tier is absolutely killing it. $200k in Manhattan/Jersey City is permanent renter status, maybe 2 bedroom if lucky. I'd also say that there was a 2 year peak of hopefulness that big tech jobs would become a national phenomenon.. rather than crowding all the good paying jobs into a few zip codes where you need to pay everyone a ton so they can piss all that money on overpriced housing. Yet here we are, the economy has turned and companies having the upper hand want to go back to 2019.
- 0xbadcafebee 3y agoIt's not like productivity will drop if you support both remote-first workers and in-office workers; we know it worked great during the pandemic. But learning how to support both is a painful leaning curve which executives and middle managers don't want to deal with. I gave executives entire volumes of literature during the pandemic on how to do remote work successfully, and they didn't read any of it. Mandatory office work is just executives being lazy. They don't want to learn how to work a new way. This is a big flaw in hierarchical organizations. If a few of your low-level workers are lazy or incompetent, it won't have a big impact on the whole company. But if a few of your executives are lazy and incompetent, it has a much larger effect.
- hiddencost 3y ago"I got laid off without a severance package."
- havnagiggle 3y agoThis is the area I am most interested in. I have personal experience where every member of my division (~25-30 people, including my manager) was laid off and received severance. I was deemed too important and should stick around the empty office or move to remote work. I would have rather received a severance package and moved on. Employment lawyers confirmed that this was okay, and it just sucks to be me. Now I'm in a gig that's WFH, with quite a few teammates also WFH, but we're effectively local to an office. There's a real possibility of my company making one of these descend on the office policies, and I will be left out of a severance package a second time. The state of worker rights is awful.
- aeyes 3y agoIt looks more like they quit. I would have just not returned to office and waited to be laid off.
- blibble 3y agoindeed at least in the UK employers can't make unilateral contract changes and things like working from home for 3 years (for everyone) are likely to become implied contract terms even if they're not written down if you did want to resign as a result it seems like an easy constructive dismissal case
- malfist 3y agoAmazon has told it's employees if you don't return to the office you will have "voluntarily resigned" Not sure how legal it is to fire an employee by telling them they resigned by choice, but that's how amazon is phrasing it. Oh, and no paper trail. Managers are told to give those instructions verbally and not in slack/email. Asking HR to confirm it and they'll tell you to call your manager.
- 3y ago
- troupe 3y agoIt's great this employee was able to find another remote job that hired them. That is how the market will sort these things out. If there is really no advantage of having people come into the office, then companies that require it will have a smaller pool to pull top talent from than employees that allow remote work. On the other hand, if there are advantages to collaborating in person the companies that get people back in the office may have a competitive advantage. The culture that has grown up around remote and hybrid work in most companies is bad enough for collaboration that I bet we'll see some companies doing much better with people in the office. This isn't really because being in the office is more productive, but doing remote/hybrid poorly is worse than the average way of doing in-person work.
- Apreche 3y agoGood move, but should have made them fire you instead.
- pg_1234 3y agohttps://archive.ph/BVfqf https://archive.ph/BVfqf
- RexFactorem 3y ago[dead]