4 ms·

> ...Binding of circulating S protein... Vaccines don't cause circulating S protein at any levels that could cause damage to organs. We can measure some S in

> ...Binding of circulating S protein... Vaccines don't cause circulating S protein at any levels that could cause damage to organs. We can measure some S in the blood after vaccination, but it is at levels of picograms per milliliter. Spike is confined within the cells that the vaccine enters and isn't sprayed around the circulatory system by the vaccine. What is displayed on the surface of those cells is the T-cell epitopes after the protein has been chopped up by proteases and those relatively short sequences are displayed on MHC for the immune system. The spike that leaks out is probably only due to those cells being lysed in the lymph nodes. That is many orders of magnitude less of an exposure than someone who is infected and has literally billions of virus particles floating around expressing spike on their surface. The vaccine won't cause any effects via circulating spike, that is just bullshit that was being spread early in the vaccine rollout. The reactions to the vaccine are going to be autoimmune-mediated.

verisimi 3y ago
[flagged]
- lamontcg 3y ago
  You should really start by asking the parent comment where they got their information or any papers showing the biological effect of spike on ACE2 receptors after vaccination. https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-safe-idUSL2N2NX1J6 https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-safe-idUSL... This is the actual scientific article: https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/74/4/715/6279075?login=false https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/74/4/715/6279075?login=... Sorry, after 2.5 years I misremembered pg/mL as fg/mL but its all too small to matter.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    What are your thoughts on https://doi.org/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.061025 https://doi.org/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.061025 (AFAICT, correlation between post-vaccine myocarditis and detectable free spike, possibly due to individual differences in some adolescents causing slower(?) spike clearance)? Credible?
    - haldujai 3y ago
      There's a very detailed commentary on that article you may find interesting. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.123.063396 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.123.0...
    - lamontcg 3y ago
      I've suffered viral pericarditis before due to a cold, so I'm very aware of how the immune system can cause autoimmune inflammatory conditions (onset of my symptoms were weeks after my cold symptoms had completely cleared--the virus wasn't still around banging on my pericardium). You don't need circulating spike to explain vaccine caused myocarditis. The vaccine produces an immune response. The initial immune response are low affinity antibodies. Those antibodies can sometimes target host cells accidentally. As somatic hypermutation happens in the months following the exposure to the antigen the high affinity antibodies that form (and which are boosted by a 2nd exposure to the antigen) are less likely to accidentally target host cells. This is presumably why I had a complete recovery after around 2 months and all I needed was an NSAID to tamp down the inflammation. The obvious objection to that article is that correlation is not causation. It needs to be replicated, and there needs to be more than just speculation about a mechanism. There already exists a very well-known mechanism (autoimmunity) for the alternative explanation.
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        Well, everything in science is correlation. Causation is a construct... I am taking your comment to mean that you think it's not a credible paper? That's the main thing I wanted to know, it seems like you believe the paper implies something very unlikely and so authors have an agenda?
  - nvm0n2 3y ago
    You're overlooking the cases where the vaccine enters the bloodstream and itself is circulating, or gets transcribed and yields permanent spike production. Especially if combined with immune tolerance this can cause the observed effects where vaccines are directly triggering t1 diabetes (see my comments on another thread for study links showing this, including one from moderna itself).

verisimi 3y ago

[flagged]

lamontcg 3y ago
You should really start by asking the parent comment where they got their information or any papers showing the biological effect of spike on ACE2 receptors after vaccination. https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-safe-idUSL2N2NX1J6 https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-safe-idUSL... This is the actual scientific article: https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/74/4/715/6279075?login=false https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/74/4/715/6279075?login=... Sorry, after 2.5 years I misremembered pg/mL as fg/mL but its all too small to matter.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  What are your thoughts on https://doi.org/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.061025 https://doi.org/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.061025 (AFAICT, correlation between post-vaccine myocarditis and detectable free spike, possibly due to individual differences in some adolescents causing slower(?) spike clearance)? Credible?
  - haldujai 3y ago
    There's a very detailed commentary on that article you may find interesting. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.123.063396 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.123.0...
  - lamontcg 3y ago
    I've suffered viral pericarditis before due to a cold, so I'm very aware of how the immune system can cause autoimmune inflammatory conditions (onset of my symptoms were weeks after my cold symptoms had completely cleared--the virus wasn't still around banging on my pericardium). You don't need circulating spike to explain vaccine caused myocarditis. The vaccine produces an immune response. The initial immune response are low affinity antibodies. Those antibodies can sometimes target host cells accidentally. As somatic hypermutation happens in the months following the exposure to the antigen the high affinity antibodies that form (and which are boosted by a 2nd exposure to the antigen) are less likely to accidentally target host cells. This is presumably why I had a complete recovery after around 2 months and all I needed was an NSAID to tamp down the inflammation. The obvious objection to that article is that correlation is not causation. It needs to be replicated, and there needs to be more than just speculation about a mechanism. There already exists a very well-known mechanism (autoimmunity) for the alternative explanation.
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      Well, everything in science is correlation. Causation is a construct... I am taking your comment to mean that you think it's not a credible paper? That's the main thing I wanted to know, it seems like you believe the paper implies something very unlikely and so authors have an agenda?
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  You're overlooking the cases where the vaccine enters the bloodstream and itself is circulating, or gets transcribed and yields permanent spike production. Especially if combined with immune tolerance this can cause the observed effects where vaccines are directly triggering t1 diabetes (see my comments on another thread for study links showing this, including one from moderna itself).