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Obviously satire, but in real life, there are reasons why a full rewrite becomes appealing. Perhaps the solution even. One is overwhelming technical debt. Code

by mekoka 3y ago

Obviously satire, but in real life, there are reasons why a full rewrite becomes appealing. Perhaps the solution even. One is overwhelming technical debt. Code where the project manager didn't believe in encapsulation, or refactoring, or none of that "architectural nonsense", and was only fired 5 years too late. Code that is difficult to understand, maintain, test, debug, change. Code that follows you home after-hours and on the week-ends. Code that nurses you to bed at night, shows up in your dreams, and wakes you up in the morning. Code that has made many a colleague look for employment elsewhere and new hires give up and quit in their first week. Every time I see someone profess with assurance that you don't rewrite, I just know that that person has never really experienced the hell I've described above.

BlargMcLarg 3y ago
> Code where the project manager didn't believe in encapsulation, or refactoring, or none of that "architectural nonsense" If anything I find the largest proponents to have drunk too deep from that well and cause the rewrites to never be considered, as the time required to do it becomes far too long to be worth the pay-out. This excludes the worst kind: the overarchitectured old mess in need of a rewrite as it was based on the wrong assumptions and is now boggled down by 10 layers of abstractions and indirection which don't do anything.
- BigJono 3y ago
  It depends on the level of the architecture. Architecture that splits the project into chunks that you can take a meat cleaver to and refactor at will is great. "Architecture" that takes one of those chunks and adds 15 abstractions to it is awful. The former lets you recover from the latter without a full rewrite, which I'm guessing is where advice like "never rewrite" comes from. Posts that are pro/anti 'architecture' could refer to either, so I never know whether to agree with them or not. They're kinda meaningless out of context.
anonzzzies 3y ago
I am against rewrites of any significance because they generally just end up worse. Joel Spolsky wrote about that a long time ago as did others; most software that’s older has millions of badly documented changes applied by 1000s of people over the decades and rewriting tends to take literally forever (never finishes) or at least much long than anyone estimated times PI. And then the endresult is usually just as crappy but with more bugs. The Dutch tax software rewrite attempts are an example I am personally familiar with. These attempt made me create a services company to help companies keep legacy software running forever. We support gnarly stuff over 25 years old and still wouldn’t recommend a rewrite for the above reasons. There are of course cases where rewrites (of significance; rewriting a 50k LoC codebase is not going to be hard) work, but usually the rewrite is done by the same people that did the original , the original wasn’t actually that bad but just too hard to extend in modern times etc.
- mekoka 3y ago
  Joel published that post the same year that Microsoft announced their .NET framework. I've said this in a different threads, but I think it's worth repeating here. I've seen many successful projects that started out as reverse engineered clones of older, well established ones, then go on to become better versions of their original model. Those are in effect rewrites, just not done by the same team. For a number of years now, it's been feasible to compete technically with an incumbent in matter of months. I see it as a trend indicating an increase in software production capability, be it because of better practices, better tools, or more developer availability. So although I tend to agree with Joel's old post, and still lean toward refactoring as the likely more economical approach, I hold that advice less religiously.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    I think reverse engineering is often better than a rewrite from code, but again, as the dutch (and I have seen it in other countries too but I am intimately familiar with both failed rewrites attempts of this one) tax software system showed, it is sometimes just not feasible, no matter the money or the amount of experts. The amount of tax payer money wasted on the attempts is criminal.
tcbawo 3y ago
What you are describing sounds more like a problem with leadership to empower ICs and groups to make improvements, or possibly a culture of dumping code, declaring victory, and moving on. If new hires are bailing in their first week, the problems run far deeper than the codebase. Rewriting anything is not likely to change the long term end state unless the company culture has shifted. I have yet to experience an organization where a real cultural shift has happened.
l0b0 3y ago
> One is overwhelming technical debt. […] This sounds like an organisation with bigger problems than a single manager. The devs hate the job, but don't have the clout to convince management to let them do things properly? Run. It's not worth it. An organisation doesn't suddenly "heal" once a bad apple is gone. More likely, everybody is at least five years behind current best practice, and very much used to doing things that way.
Aeolun 3y ago
Somehow I felt like you were describing my Factorio factory…
bazoom42 3y ago
I have see horrible code, but the point is that a rewrite will not solve this. You will just lose years of opportunity and end up in exactly the same place again after the rewrite. Because the reasons which lead the first version to become a big ball of mud will also cause the rewite to end in the same state.

by mekoka 3y ago

BlargMcLarg 3y ago

> Code where the project manager didn't believe in encapsulation, or refactoring, or none of that "architectural nonsense" If anything I find the largest proponents to have drunk too deep from that well and cause the rewrites to never be considered, as the time required to do it becomes far too long to be worth the pay-out. This excludes the worst kind: the overarchitectured old mess in need of a rewrite as it was based on the wrong assumptions and is now boggled down by 10 layers of abstractions and indirection which don't do anything.

BigJono 3y ago
It depends on the level of the architecture. Architecture that splits the project into chunks that you can take a meat cleaver to and refactor at will is great. "Architecture" that takes one of those chunks and adds 15 abstractions to it is awful. The former lets you recover from the latter without a full rewrite, which I'm guessing is where advice like "never rewrite" comes from. Posts that are pro/anti 'architecture' could refer to either, so I never know whether to agree with them or not. They're kinda meaningless out of context.

anonzzzies 3y ago

I am against rewrites of any significance because they generally just end up worse. Joel Spolsky wrote about that a long time ago as did others; most software that’s older has millions of badly documented changes applied by 1000s of people over the decades and rewriting tends to take literally forever (never finishes) or at least much long than anyone estimated times PI. And then the endresult is usually just as crappy but with more bugs. The Dutch tax software rewrite attempts are an example I am personally familiar with. These attempt made me create a services company to help companies keep legacy software running forever. We support gnarly stuff over 25 years old and still wouldn’t recommend a rewrite for the above reasons. There are of course cases where rewrites (of significance; rewriting a 50k LoC codebase is not going to be hard) work, but usually the rewrite is done by the same people that did the original , the original wasn’t actually that bad but just too hard to extend in modern times etc.

mekoka 3y ago
Joel published that post the same year that Microsoft announced their .NET framework. I've said this in a different threads, but I think it's worth repeating here. I've seen many successful projects that started out as reverse engineered clones of older, well established ones, then go on to become better versions of their original model. Those are in effect rewrites, just not done by the same team. For a number of years now, it's been feasible to compete technically with an incumbent in matter of months. I see it as a trend indicating an increase in software production capability, be it because of better practices, better tools, or more developer availability. So although I tend to agree with Joel's old post, and still lean toward refactoring as the likely more economical approach, I hold that advice less religiously.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  I think reverse engineering is often better than a rewrite from code, but again, as the dutch (and I have seen it in other countries too but I am intimately familiar with both failed rewrites attempts of this one) tax software system showed, it is sometimes just not feasible, no matter the money or the amount of experts. The amount of tax payer money wasted on the attempts is criminal.

tcbawo 3y ago

What you are describing sounds more like a problem with leadership to empower ICs and groups to make improvements, or possibly a culture of dumping code, declaring victory, and moving on. If new hires are bailing in their first week, the problems run far deeper than the codebase. Rewriting anything is not likely to change the long term end state unless the company culture has shifted. I have yet to experience an organization where a real cultural shift has happened.

l0b0 3y ago

> One is overwhelming technical debt. […] This sounds like an organisation with bigger problems than a single manager. The devs hate the job, but don't have the clout to convince management to let them do things properly? Run. It's not worth it. An organisation doesn't suddenly "heal" once a bad apple is gone. More likely, everybody is at least five years behind current best practice, and very much used to doing things that way.

Aeolun 3y ago

Somehow I felt like you were describing my Factorio factory…

bazoom42 3y ago

I have see horrible code, but the point is that a rewrite will not solve this. You will just lose years of opportunity and end up in exactly the same place again after the rewrite. Because the reasons which lead the first version to become a big ball of mud will also cause the rewite to end in the same state.