5 ms·

Simple fix then, ban reselling. The artist and TM still get the revenue, but the scalper gets inventory they can't move. What about the fans? Similar to airl

Simple fix then, ban reselling. The artist and TM still get the revenue, but the scalper gets inventory they can't move. What about the fans? Similar to airlines, let people buy standby tickets, at the event, check attendance, if there is space let the stand bys in. TM still gets paid twice, scalper has garbage, and fans get in. What about fans who can't go? Buy the insurance at checkout, if you can't go the insurance comps for the cost of the ticket.

emodendroket 3y ago
That would just return them to the status quo ante where scalpers sell through third parties.
- Analemma_ 3y ago
  If you tied tickets to names and required ID at the venue (allowing refunds in case you couldn't make it), this wouldn't work and scalping would basically end overnight. The fact that neither Ticketmaster nor the performers nor the venues has ever taken this simple step is the proof that it's not in their interest to do so. Note that events where the promoters are actually interested in having people show up instead of in scraping for every dollar (e.g. PAX) do this, and it works fine.
  - musicale 3y ago
    Doesn't PAX just the badges out? They are readily and frequently resold, online and at the venue. More effective would be having to show your ID at the venue with no reentry. "Scalpy McScalper. Looks good to me. Enjoy the show!"
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    Or proof that getting in would take much longer if they did that. Anyway, there are legitimate reasons someone might want to resell, like no longer being free on the event date, so I’m not sure even legitimate buyers would prefer such a strict system.
    - musicale 3y ago
      I've been to a few events that required ID check for entry and it was pretty streamlined. It seems to work OK as long as there is enough capacity to get everyone in quickly. Refund with a small charge seems fine to me.
    - krisoft 3y ago
      > there are legitimate reasons someone might want to resell, like no longer being free on the event date Which can also happen with airplane tickets. What makes it ok for an airplane ticket to be strictly tied to an ID, but not for a show?
      - emodendroket 3y ago
        The airline is allowed (in fact, required by law) to use security as a reason to pursue a policy that’s favorable to them. Do you like the experience of going to the airport and wish more things you did were similar?
  - sundvor 3y ago
    Yup if you applied for a refund, your ticket(s) could go back in the pool for someone wanting to get one/some last minute. If it/they are picked up, you get your money back minus transaction fees and perhaps a small penalty, and if it doesn't, you don't - but at least you tried and someone else had a chance to get it. Ticketmaster obviously doesn't GAF / care. (The above was for a last few hours or days cancellation type scenario; there could be variations to this where if the event is months out, you could get an instant almost full refund etc - benefits could very well be linked to a premium subscription service perhaps. Lots of ways here to play.)
    - matsemann 3y ago
      This is how Ticket master works in Norway, where it's illegal to sell above face value. Or, more specifically you set your own price with the max being what you bought it for.
      - musicale 3y ago
        I want Norway Ticketmaster.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    I agree, but Devil's advocate, consider 1) when buying for young kids. Minors don't always have ID and are rarely expected to have them in public. 2) when you buy for a group. You may not have everyone's ID on hand at once, and it makes it harder for honest friends to get tickets together. You don't need to sit together at PAX.
    - musicale 3y ago
      The way I've seen it done is: - kids do not need ID because they usually don't have them - every adult in the group needs to have their name registered at ticket purchase time
    - doikor 3y ago
      > 2) when you buy for a group. You may not have everyone's ID on hand at once, and it makes it harder for honest friends to get tickets together. You don't need to sit together at PAX. Have a day or two window to assign the names to the tickets. Sure it is a small window for scalpers too but not really enough to make it work properly (and you could still force at least one of the tickets to be locked to a name at the moment of sale)
  - kazinator 3y ago
    If you immutably tied tickets to names, everyone's name would have to be verified to be Mr. Ticket Master, grand scalper.
  - jdblair 3y ago
    Thom Yorke did this when I saw him live in Oakland. All tickets had to be picked up at the Will Call counter, showing an ID. Then you could only go into the venue to the ticket check from Will Call (there were temporary barriers guiding the crowd). On the other hand, I had an extra ticket. I did manage to sell it for face value by organizing the deal just as I approached the pickup counter (someone else knew how to play the game), and we did a quick cash transaction for face value.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    > If you tied tickets to names and required ID at the venue Solution sounds worse than the original problem. What happens if I want to gift somebody a ticket? What happens if I don't want my name associated in a database for going to a gay artist's show? What happens if my wife is sick on show day so I invite my neighbor instead at the last minute?
    - rs999gti 3y ago
      Airlines allow gifting credits for flights, do the same for tickets. Gifter only gets refunds in credits not tickets. Then on acceptance, the receiver has the credit and only gets refund to them.
patrickscoleman 3y ago
Also actual fans sometimes can’t make a show and need to resell their tickets
- maven29 3y ago
  What is stopping the existence of a refund mechanism there?
  - xzel 3y ago
    Everyone in the entire chain. From artist to venue to promoter/booker to ticket platform. None of them want to refund. Not just for the obvious, but they make a killing selling ticket insurance.
  - d1sxeyes 3y ago
    Then scalpers have zero risk if they overbuy, encouraging scalpers even more.
    - maven29 3y ago
      If you restrict refunds to be permissible only until a certain point before the event, that will create a window in which unsuccessfully scalped tickets are released back into the pool for general public, bypassing scalpers. If scalpers choose to hold onto the tickets beyond the point, they wouldn't really be able to liquidate. I'd say that we shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good, with regards to refunds.
- oehpr 3y ago
  you have to make tradeoffs. If you want to ban reselling, you ban reselling. Scalpers locking out fans is a universal concern. How often do you hear the success story of "I can't make the concert so I sold the ticket online". Come on. An industry has propped up. This is small potatoes.
- dazc 3y ago
  But people buy stuff everyday that they never actually use. Why should tickets be sacred?
bko 3y ago
This is only a problem because concert venues want to charge below market price and have the scalpers take the heat while they get their cut both ways. You can’t magically get around the market price. If you price too low you’ll have scalpers. If you beat the scalpers you’ll just have not enough tickets and a few people get tickets at below market value. Maybe that’s more fair but if you’re a fan that doesn’t feel comfortable buying tickets to a concert a year in advance, it’s likely you’re not going to be able to go at any price. People just don’t want to deal with the reality that the Taylor swift tickets that start at $40 or whatever were never real to begin with
- mpixel 3y ago
  > People just don’t want to deal with the reality that the Taylor swift tickets that start at $40 or whatever were never real to begin with This. Here's a much more optimal semi-auction style solution. Tickets go on sale for 20 days, each day, all the seats and spots are worth the same price, you can buy anything, the price is always the same. Day 1, the price is $2000. Day 20, the price is $10. So you'd only pay $60 at most for a ticket? Sure, just check in on day 16. Since we start the price at the higher-than-scalp price, there's no scalping opportunity if you are paying the 'real market price'.
  - chongli 3y ago
    For someone like Taylor Swift, the tickets would sell out at $2000 on day 1. Then what? Her fans burn down her private jet on the tarmac for being greedy. The entire reason performers want their tickets sold below market value is so that non-rich "real fans" can actually afford them. All of the other shenanigans going on are there to get around this issue (and the performers definitely get a cut) while protecting the performer's shield of plausible deniability.
    - hamandcheese 3y ago
      If image is such a concern, sell (1/x) of tickets at the max possible price, give away the other (1 - 1/x) the day before the show for free. Ban transfers on the free tickets.
mym1990 3y ago
Instead of banning resale, why not just allow resale at face value? The French open(tennis) does this and makes it possible to still get tickets at a reasonable price up until the day of the event.
- kazinator 3y ago
  Because you don't handle the money. If A shows up to the concert with tickets originally purchased by B, you have no idea how much A paid. Banning resale is not about selling per se but banning the changing of ownership. The person who paid is verified to be the one attending.
  - mym1990 3y ago
    What? In my example, Person B buys the change of ownership from person A at face value...its pretty clear how much they each paid. Absolutely no resale is just shifting the risk to the consumer, and affecting the 99% of people who want to see a good show. If the agency takes away the profit of resale, while still collecting a small fee on change of ownership, and allows customers to have flexibility in changing circumstances...its a win win win.
    - kazinator 3y ago
      > its pretty clear how much they each paid By what surveillance method is this? Or you mean there is a locked down trading platform, and only there can tickets be traded? What prevents additional money from changing hands via an off-platform backchannel? A law could discourage that, like the one in Norway your sibling comment pointed out.
  - matsemann 3y ago
    In Norway it's by law not legal to resell tickets at a higher price. That means that all listings on reputable buy/sell sites will immediately be taken down if you try. It of course still happens, but in a smaller scale. You can't base a business around it, exactly.
- chpatrick 3y ago
magicalhippo 3y ago
> Simple fix then, ban reselling. In Norway they introduced a law[1] that forbids reselling for a higher price than that printed on the ticket. I do recall there was a lot of talk about scalping in the years before this law, and I haven't heard much since. I also noticed a drastic decrease of scalpers trying to sell tickets outside the venue. [1]: https://lovdata.no/dokument/NL/lov/2007-06-29-86 https://lovdata.no/dokument/NL/lov/2007-06-29-86
- firebat45 3y ago
  >In Norway they introduced a law[1] that forbids reselling for a higher price than that printed on the ticket. For sale, desirable ticket at face value and $500 peanut. Only willing to sell as a bundle.

emodendroket 3y ago

That would just return them to the status quo ante where scalpers sell through third parties.

Analemma_ 3y ago
If you tied tickets to names and required ID at the venue (allowing refunds in case you couldn't make it), this wouldn't work and scalping would basically end overnight. The fact that neither Ticketmaster nor the performers nor the venues has ever taken this simple step is the proof that it's not in their interest to do so. Note that events where the promoters are actually interested in having people show up instead of in scraping for every dollar (e.g. PAX) do this, and it works fine.
- musicale 3y ago
  Doesn't PAX just the badges out? They are readily and frequently resold, online and at the venue. More effective would be having to show your ID at the venue with no reentry. "Scalpy McScalper. Looks good to me. Enjoy the show!"
- emodendroket 3y ago
  Or proof that getting in would take much longer if they did that. Anyway, there are legitimate reasons someone might want to resell, like no longer being free on the event date, so I’m not sure even legitimate buyers would prefer such a strict system.
  - musicale 3y ago
    I've been to a few events that required ID check for entry and it was pretty streamlined. It seems to work OK as long as there is enough capacity to get everyone in quickly. Refund with a small charge seems fine to me.
  - krisoft 3y ago
    > there are legitimate reasons someone might want to resell, like no longer being free on the event date Which can also happen with airplane tickets. What makes it ok for an airplane ticket to be strictly tied to an ID, but not for a show?
    - emodendroket 3y ago
      The airline is allowed (in fact, required by law) to use security as a reason to pursue a policy that’s favorable to them. Do you like the experience of going to the airport and wish more things you did were similar?
- sundvor 3y ago
  Yup if you applied for a refund, your ticket(s) could go back in the pool for someone wanting to get one/some last minute. If it/they are picked up, you get your money back minus transaction fees and perhaps a small penalty, and if it doesn't, you don't - but at least you tried and someone else had a chance to get it. Ticketmaster obviously doesn't GAF / care. (The above was for a last few hours or days cancellation type scenario; there could be variations to this where if the event is months out, you could get an instant almost full refund etc - benefits could very well be linked to a premium subscription service perhaps. Lots of ways here to play.)
  - matsemann 3y ago
    This is how Ticket master works in Norway, where it's illegal to sell above face value. Or, more specifically you set your own price with the max being what you bought it for.
    - musicale 3y ago
      I want Norway Ticketmaster.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I agree, but Devil's advocate, consider 1) when buying for young kids. Minors don't always have ID and are rarely expected to have them in public. 2) when you buy for a group. You may not have everyone's ID on hand at once, and it makes it harder for honest friends to get tickets together. You don't need to sit together at PAX.
  - musicale 3y ago
    The way I've seen it done is: - kids do not need ID because they usually don't have them - every adult in the group needs to have their name registered at ticket purchase time
  - doikor 3y ago
    > 2) when you buy for a group. You may not have everyone's ID on hand at once, and it makes it harder for honest friends to get tickets together. You don't need to sit together at PAX. Have a day or two window to assign the names to the tickets. Sure it is a small window for scalpers too but not really enough to make it work properly (and you could still force at least one of the tickets to be locked to a name at the moment of sale)
- kazinator 3y ago
  If you immutably tied tickets to names, everyone's name would have to be verified to be Mr. Ticket Master, grand scalper.
- jdblair 3y ago
  Thom Yorke did this when I saw him live in Oakland. All tickets had to be picked up at the Will Call counter, showing an ID. Then you could only go into the venue to the ticket check from Will Call (there were temporary barriers guiding the crowd). On the other hand, I had an extra ticket. I did manage to sell it for face value by organizing the deal just as I approached the pickup counter (someone else knew how to play the game), and we did a quick cash transaction for face value.
- dotancohen 3y ago
  > If you tied tickets to names and required ID at the venue Solution sounds worse than the original problem. What happens if I want to gift somebody a ticket? What happens if I don't want my name associated in a database for going to a gay artist's show? What happens if my wife is sick on show day so I invite my neighbor instead at the last minute?
  - rs999gti 3y ago
    Airlines allow gifting credits for flights, do the same for tickets. Gifter only gets refunds in credits not tickets. Then on acceptance, the receiver has the credit and only gets refund to them.

patrickscoleman 3y ago

Also actual fans sometimes can’t make a show and need to resell their tickets

maven29 3y ago
What is stopping the existence of a refund mechanism there?
- xzel 3y ago
  Everyone in the entire chain. From artist to venue to promoter/booker to ticket platform. None of them want to refund. Not just for the obvious, but they make a killing selling ticket insurance.
- d1sxeyes 3y ago
  Then scalpers have zero risk if they overbuy, encouraging scalpers even more.
  - maven29 3y ago
    If you restrict refunds to be permissible only until a certain point before the event, that will create a window in which unsuccessfully scalped tickets are released back into the pool for general public, bypassing scalpers. If scalpers choose to hold onto the tickets beyond the point, they wouldn't really be able to liquidate. I'd say that we shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good, with regards to refunds.
oehpr 3y ago
you have to make tradeoffs. If you want to ban reselling, you ban reselling. Scalpers locking out fans is a universal concern. How often do you hear the success story of "I can't make the concert so I sold the ticket online". Come on. An industry has propped up. This is small potatoes.
dazc 3y ago
But people buy stuff everyday that they never actually use. Why should tickets be sacred?

bko 3y ago

This is only a problem because concert venues want to charge below market price and have the scalpers take the heat while they get their cut both ways. You can’t magically get around the market price. If you price too low you’ll have scalpers. If you beat the scalpers you’ll just have not enough tickets and a few people get tickets at below market value. Maybe that’s more fair but if you’re a fan that doesn’t feel comfortable buying tickets to a concert a year in advance, it’s likely you’re not going to be able to go at any price. People just don’t want to deal with the reality that the Taylor swift tickets that start at $40 or whatever were never real to begin with

mpixel 3y ago
> People just don’t want to deal with the reality that the Taylor swift tickets that start at $40 or whatever were never real to begin with This. Here's a much more optimal semi-auction style solution. Tickets go on sale for 20 days, each day, all the seats and spots are worth the same price, you can buy anything, the price is always the same. Day 1, the price is $2000. Day 20, the price is $10. So you'd only pay $60 at most for a ticket? Sure, just check in on day 16. Since we start the price at the higher-than-scalp price, there's no scalping opportunity if you are paying the 'real market price'.
- chongli 3y ago
  For someone like Taylor Swift, the tickets would sell out at $2000 on day 1. Then what? Her fans burn down her private jet on the tarmac for being greedy. The entire reason performers want their tickets sold below market value is so that non-rich "real fans" can actually afford them. All of the other shenanigans going on are there to get around this issue (and the performers definitely get a cut) while protecting the performer's shield of plausible deniability.
  - hamandcheese 3y ago
    If image is such a concern, sell (1/x) of tickets at the max possible price, give away the other (1 - 1/x) the day before the show for free. Ban transfers on the free tickets.

mym1990 3y ago

Instead of banning resale, why not just allow resale at face value? The French open(tennis) does this and makes it possible to still get tickets at a reasonable price up until the day of the event.

kazinator 3y ago
Because you don't handle the money. If A shows up to the concert with tickets originally purchased by B, you have no idea how much A paid. Banning resale is not about selling per se but banning the changing of ownership. The person who paid is verified to be the one attending.
- mym1990 3y ago
  What? In my example, Person B buys the change of ownership from person A at face value...its pretty clear how much they each paid. Absolutely no resale is just shifting the risk to the consumer, and affecting the 99% of people who want to see a good show. If the agency takes away the profit of resale, while still collecting a small fee on change of ownership, and allows customers to have flexibility in changing circumstances...its a win win win.
  - kazinator 3y ago
    > its pretty clear how much they each paid By what surveillance method is this? Or you mean there is a locked down trading platform, and only there can tickets be traded? What prevents additional money from changing hands via an off-platform backchannel? A law could discourage that, like the one in Norway your sibling comment pointed out.
- matsemann 3y ago
  In Norway it's by law not legal to resell tickets at a higher price. That means that all listings on reputable buy/sell sites will immediately be taken down if you try. It of course still happens, but in a smaller scale. You can't base a business around it, exactly.
chpatrick 3y ago

magicalhippo 3y ago

> Simple fix then, ban reselling. In Norway they introduced a law[1] that forbids reselling for a higher price than that printed on the ticket. I do recall there was a lot of talk about scalping in the years before this law, and I haven't heard much since. I also noticed a drastic decrease of scalpers trying to sell tickets outside the venue. [1]: https://lovdata.no/dokument/NL/lov/2007-06-29-86 https://lovdata.no/dokument/NL/lov/2007-06-29-86

firebat45 3y ago
>In Norway they introduced a law[1] that forbids reselling for a higher price than that printed on the ticket. For sale, desirable ticket at face value and $500 peanut. Only willing to sell as a bundle.