5 ms·

If they are willing to retroactively change the TOS once, why wouldn't they do it again once the smoke has settled? I don't make games, I have nothing at stake

If they are willing to retroactively change the TOS once, why wouldn't they do it again once the smoke has settled? I don't make games, I have nothing at stake in this fight, but this just feels like PR damage control and to be completely honest, I don't think most software engineers are so absolutely dependent on (proper noun) Unity to risk this company doing shady stuff again, and I suspect this entire ordeal will work as great marketing for engines like Unreal. A part of me thinks that the CEO (and all the other executive morons who decided to make the installation fee) was sitting there thinking "what are they going to do? Move to Godot?", but if that was their line of thinking, and if they seriously did not think they were competing with Unreal, then I really do not see what business they have being multimillionaires in charge of any kind of decision-making process.

rhtgrg 3y ago
> If they are willing to retroactively change the TOS once, why wouldn't they do it again once the smoke has settled? I haven't seen any evidence they did that, it's mostly been FUD from Godot supporters. The initial communication was messy, but where are actual TOS changes that are being touted so loudly? https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service-legacy https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service-legacy
- tombert 3y ago
  I have no skin in this game, but I read this article: https://gameworldobserver.com/2023/09/14/unity-license-terms-github-repo-removed-retroactive-changes https://gameworldobserver.com/2023/09/14/unity-license-terms... ETA: You updated your post with the TOS, but from what I read the concern was that the new TOS said it applied to any new distribution of the Unity Runtime, without specifying versions and the like.
  - rhtgrg 3y ago
    I have never seen a Unity TOS that specified versions as seen in the screenshot of the link you shared. Where did they get that screenshot from? They need to share their source. For all we know this is a change from 2020 (latest version referred to in their screenshot). In which case I think you will agree that is plenty of notice and most likely unrelated to be maliciously related to what's being announced now. They've even walked back the applicability to old versions as seen in GP.
    - tombert 3y ago
      Well Unity is being accused of some dishonesty with updating things and not disclosing it [1]. If that's true, then it's possible that it's been somewhat purged to make themselves look better. That said, that's a big "if", I'm just regurgitating what I read in news articles. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37615183 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37615183
      - rhtgrg 3y ago
        Jan '22 TOS does not have such a clause either (from archive.org): https://web.archive.org/web/20220716041837/https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service https://web.archive.org/web/20220716041837/https://unity.com... At this point I'm pretty sure this is a dishonest attempt to dig up a 2020 change (if this clause even ever existed, which I've seen zero proof of) and correlate it to a 2023 announcement as if these things were done in tandem. Downvote me all you want. I don't think Godot et al will survive with these scummy tactics.
        tombert 3y ago
        I seriously doubt this is some conspiracy from the Godot team, even if it's dishonest. I think people are probably drawing some correlations as a response to an announcement that they don't like, and then saying "Godot doesn't have this bullshit because it's open source". I don't think the Godot team is engaging in "scummy tactics" explicitly. ETA: Also, if you're going to edit your responses after you post them, I recommend using the `delay` feature in your HN settings, or adding an addendum section like I'm doing here, as it's a little unfair to people responding to you to make undisclosed changes so it looks like people responding to you aren't responding to all your points. I'm not saying you're being dishonest, I'm just saying that it feels a little unfair to responders.
        rhtgrg 3y ago
        Thanks, I'll use the delay feature. I accept that this has nothing to do with Godot. I did find the TOS in question, as expected, it's very old (from 2019): https://web.archive.org/web/20201111183311/https://github.com/Unity-Technologies/TermsOfService/blob/master/Unity%20Software%20Additional%20Terms.md https://web.archive.org/web/20201111183311/https://github.co... So people saying "who's to say they won't do this again," if four years isn't enough for you to catch up, I don't know what to tell you. Edit: They have also brought the repo back, which was likely another unrelated change: https://github.com/Unity-Technologies/TermsOfService https://github.com/Unity-Technologies/TermsOfService
- danShumway 3y ago
  I commented similarly below, but see the March 2023 snapshot at https://web.archive.org/web/20230303043022/https://unity.com/legal/editor-terms-of-service/software https://web.archive.org/web/20230303043022/https://unity.com... Section 6 (Modifications to these Software Terms and Long-Term Supported versions). If you go to the next snapshot (https://web.archive.org/web/20230413210637/https://unity.com/legal/editor-terms-of-service/software https://web.archive.org/web/20230413210637/https://unity.com...), Section 6 will be missing and you'll see the following header at the top of the TOS: > Last updated: April 3, 2023 > What’s changed: We have posted an update to our Unity Editor Software Terms to, among other things, provide for our Industry Offering. We’ve also updated other sections, including those relating to data collection and modification of terms. Interestingly, their linked FAQ (https://web.archive.org/web/20230605071610/https://unity.com/legal/editor-terms-of-service/software/faq https://web.archive.org/web/20230605071610/https://unity.com...) provides no mention of the fact that they've removed the clause. I can't know what was going through Unity executives' heads when that FAQ was written, but they apparently didn't think it important to draw attention or specifically notify users about that revocation of their rights.
- imtringued 3y ago
  Why would "Godot supporters" care about what Unity is doing? It's not like they are on payroll and more users means more bug reports and feature requests for the maintainers without necessarily gaining more capacity to implement them. An open source project doesn't need an exodus of users from another project, it needs to get parity with its competitors and then quietly take over the market with little resistance.
gumballindie 3y ago
> A part of me thinks that the CEO (and all the other executive morons who decided to make the installation fee) was sitting there thinking "what are they going to do? Move to Godot?" Their CEO gives me the impression of a rich but unsophisticated mba type who can only deliver revenue growth by raising prices. I doubt he even thought about captive customers and lack of what he might have thought alternative engines, let along open source and free. He’s the type that thinks open source is maybe a toy. I knew he was a stink when i read that he ordered unity employees back to offices. He thought he can order customers a new fee. He confirmed my suspicion. A shame that we as a society and industry allow these zeroes to end up leading tech companies.
- DonHopkins 3y ago
  I know John Riccitiello from when I worked at Maxis/EA on The Sims last century, and when he was involved with investing in Will Wright's Stupid Fun Club, and later when he was involved as CEO of EA in open sourcing SimCity for the One Laptop Per Child. We (including Eben Moglen, Free Software Foundation general counsel) explained to him why EA should open source the original SimCity source code under GPL-3, and what open source software and GPL-3 mean, and he approved the deal, and I gave him credit and positive feedback and sincerely thanked him. And we earned EA a lot of good publicity during a time when they were considered one of the worst companies in the world. EA Donates Original City-Building Game, SimCity, to ''One Laptop per Child'' Initiative: https://ir.ea.com/press-releases/press-release-details/2007/EA-Donates-Original-City-Building-Game-SimCity-to-One-Laptop-per-Child-Initiative/default.aspx https://ir.ea.com/press-releases/press-release-details/2007/... OLCP EA Contract: https://donhopkins.com/home/olpc-ea-contract.pdf https://donhopkins.com/home/olpc-ea-contract.pdf And I've given him credit for doing that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23251414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23251414 When Unity joined the Blender development fund as a Patron member while Riccitiello was CEO of Unity, I also gave him positive feedback and sincerely thanked him again, telling him how important Blender is to Unity game developers, and how important it is for them to work well together. Unity Joins the Blender Development Fund as a Patron Member: https://www.blender.org/press/unity-joins-the-blender-development-fund-as-a-patron-member/ https://www.blender.org/press/unity-joins-the-blender-develo... I recommended he watch Ton Roosendaal's excellent "Money doesn't interest me" interview, in which he does not hold back on his feelings about Autodesk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJEWOTZnFeg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJEWOTZnFeg And also this video of Ton getting hit by a ceiling tile during a talk. (Presumably perpetrated by Autodesk!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJwG-qt-sgk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJwG-qt-sgk Then when Joe Biden endorsed Unity three times in his inaugural address, I asked Riccitiello how much Unity paid for that product placement, but he wouldn't tell me: >"With Unity we can do great things, important things!" >"For without Unity, there is no peace, only bitterness and fury." >"And Unity is the path forward." >-Joe Biden's inaugural address. Then after Unity recently announced they're pulling the rug out from under their developers, I posted to Riccitiello's Facebook page a screen snapshot of the github star ranking table showing that Godot suddenly had a 535.6% increase in stars, and sincerely thanked him again, writing "Thank you for your substantial contribution to open source gaming engines, at the expense of your own company!" So I'm pretty sure he's aware of open source software, but I don't think he actually meant to benefit the Godot project so much at the expense of Unity. The Godot folks, who have greatly benefited from this fiasco through no fault of their own, immediately condemned the death threat that somebody (who turned out to be a Unity employee) posted, which caused Unity to cancel an event and close their office. https://twitter.com/godotengine/status/1702413121086705951 https://twitter.com/godotengine/status/1702413121086705951 >Godot Engine @godotengine >We extend our sincere solidarity and support to the Unity workers. The recent reactions have left us profoundly disappointed. Threats of violence should have no place in the gamedev community. The truth behind the Unity "Death Threats": https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/16j21jg/the_truth_behind_the_unity_death_threats/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/16j21jg/the_truth_... >Update: San Francisco police told Polygon that officers responded to Unity’s San Francisco office “regarding a threats incident.” A “reporting party” told police that “an employee made a threat towards his employer using social media.” The employee that made the threat works in an office outside of California, according to the police statement. Reddit thread from 8 years ago, with recent posts: https://www.reddit.com/r/Unity3D/comments/3cxogb/til_unity_ceo_john_riccitiello_was_former_ceo_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Unity3D/comments/3cxogb/til_unity_c... TIL Unity CEO John Riccitiello was former CEO of EA. He saved EA from declining profits by sellings games EA made online (Origin) rather than physical packages and raising game quality. Also, he's barely known for being CEO at Unity Technologies. >drakfyre 8 yr. ago >I am honestly really pleased the hate has died down. Riccitiello is a pretty damn good CEO and Unity's former CEO (though a SUPER COOL dude) really didn't have the practice nor want to be a CEO of such a rapidly expanding company. >rvc3m8 8 days ago >now, that didn't age well, did it? ;) >drakfyre 7 days ago >No, no it did not, not at all...
jimbob45 3y ago
"What are they going to do? Move to Godot?" I'm a casual observer in this space. Is Unreal not a viable alternative?
- tombert 3y ago
  That's my point, I think it is! The fact that the Unity executives didn't consider that people will jump ship to Unreal baffles me.

rhtgrg 3y ago

> If they are willing to retroactively change the TOS once, why wouldn't they do it again once the smoke has settled? I haven't seen any evidence they did that, it's mostly been FUD from Godot supporters. The initial communication was messy, but where are actual TOS changes that are being touted so loudly? https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service-legacy https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service-legacy

tombert 3y ago
I have no skin in this game, but I read this article: https://gameworldobserver.com/2023/09/14/unity-license-terms-github-repo-removed-retroactive-changes https://gameworldobserver.com/2023/09/14/unity-license-terms... ETA: You updated your post with the TOS, but from what I read the concern was that the new TOS said it applied to any new distribution of the Unity Runtime, without specifying versions and the like.
- rhtgrg 3y ago
  I have never seen a Unity TOS that specified versions as seen in the screenshot of the link you shared. Where did they get that screenshot from? They need to share their source. For all we know this is a change from 2020 (latest version referred to in their screenshot). In which case I think you will agree that is plenty of notice and most likely unrelated to be maliciously related to what's being announced now. They've even walked back the applicability to old versions as seen in GP.
  - tombert 3y ago
    Well Unity is being accused of some dishonesty with updating things and not disclosing it [1]. If that's true, then it's possible that it's been somewhat purged to make themselves look better. That said, that's a big "if", I'm just regurgitating what I read in news articles. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37615183 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37615183
    - rhtgrg 3y ago
      Jan '22 TOS does not have such a clause either (from archive.org): https://web.archive.org/web/20220716041837/https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service https://web.archive.org/web/20220716041837/https://unity.com... At this point I'm pretty sure this is a dishonest attempt to dig up a 2020 change (if this clause even ever existed, which I've seen zero proof of) and correlate it to a 2023 announcement as if these things were done in tandem. Downvote me all you want. I don't think Godot et al will survive with these scummy tactics.
      - tombert 3y ago
        I seriously doubt this is some conspiracy from the Godot team, even if it's dishonest. I think people are probably drawing some correlations as a response to an announcement that they don't like, and then saying "Godot doesn't have this bullshit because it's open source". I don't think the Godot team is engaging in "scummy tactics" explicitly. ETA: Also, if you're going to edit your responses after you post them, I recommend using the `delay` feature in your HN settings, or adding an addendum section like I'm doing here, as it's a little unfair to people responding to you to make undisclosed changes so it looks like people responding to you aren't responding to all your points. I'm not saying you're being dishonest, I'm just saying that it feels a little unfair to responders.
        rhtgrg 3y ago
        Thanks, I'll use the delay feature. I accept that this has nothing to do with Godot. I did find the TOS in question, as expected, it's very old (from 2019): https://web.archive.org/web/20201111183311/https://github.com/Unity-Technologies/TermsOfService/blob/master/Unity%20Software%20Additional%20Terms.md https://web.archive.org/web/20201111183311/https://github.co... So people saying "who's to say they won't do this again," if four years isn't enough for you to catch up, I don't know what to tell you. Edit: They have also brought the repo back, which was likely another unrelated change: https://github.com/Unity-Technologies/TermsOfService https://github.com/Unity-Technologies/TermsOfService
danShumway 3y ago
I commented similarly below, but see the March 2023 snapshot at https://web.archive.org/web/20230303043022/https://unity.com/legal/editor-terms-of-service/software https://web.archive.org/web/20230303043022/https://unity.com... Section 6 (Modifications to these Software Terms and Long-Term Supported versions). If you go to the next snapshot (https://web.archive.org/web/20230413210637/https://unity.com/legal/editor-terms-of-service/software https://web.archive.org/web/20230413210637/https://unity.com...), Section 6 will be missing and you'll see the following header at the top of the TOS: > Last updated: April 3, 2023 > What’s changed: We have posted an update to our Unity Editor Software Terms to, among other things, provide for our Industry Offering. We’ve also updated other sections, including those relating to data collection and modification of terms. Interestingly, their linked FAQ (https://web.archive.org/web/20230605071610/https://unity.com/legal/editor-terms-of-service/software/faq https://web.archive.org/web/20230605071610/https://unity.com...) provides no mention of the fact that they've removed the clause. I can't know what was going through Unity executives' heads when that FAQ was written, but they apparently didn't think it important to draw attention or specifically notify users about that revocation of their rights.
imtringued 3y ago
Why would "Godot supporters" care about what Unity is doing? It's not like they are on payroll and more users means more bug reports and feature requests for the maintainers without necessarily gaining more capacity to implement them. An open source project doesn't need an exodus of users from another project, it needs to get parity with its competitors and then quietly take over the market with little resistance.

gumballindie 3y ago

> A part of me thinks that the CEO (and all the other executive morons who decided to make the installation fee) was sitting there thinking "what are they going to do? Move to Godot?" Their CEO gives me the impression of a rich but unsophisticated mba type who can only deliver revenue growth by raising prices. I doubt he even thought about captive customers and lack of what he might have thought alternative engines, let along open source and free. He’s the type that thinks open source is maybe a toy. I knew he was a stink when i read that he ordered unity employees back to offices. He thought he can order customers a new fee. He confirmed my suspicion. A shame that we as a society and industry allow these zeroes to end up leading tech companies.

DonHopkins 3y ago
I know John Riccitiello from when I worked at Maxis/EA on The Sims last century, and when he was involved with investing in Will Wright's Stupid Fun Club, and later when he was involved as CEO of EA in open sourcing SimCity for the One Laptop Per Child. We (including Eben Moglen, Free Software Foundation general counsel) explained to him why EA should open source the original SimCity source code under GPL-3, and what open source software and GPL-3 mean, and he approved the deal, and I gave him credit and positive feedback and sincerely thanked him. And we earned EA a lot of good publicity during a time when they were considered one of the worst companies in the world. EA Donates Original City-Building Game, SimCity, to ''One Laptop per Child'' Initiative: https://ir.ea.com/press-releases/press-release-details/2007/EA-Donates-Original-City-Building-Game-SimCity-to-One-Laptop-per-Child-Initiative/default.aspx https://ir.ea.com/press-releases/press-release-details/2007/... OLCP EA Contract: https://donhopkins.com/home/olpc-ea-contract.pdf https://donhopkins.com/home/olpc-ea-contract.pdf And I've given him credit for doing that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23251414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23251414 When Unity joined the Blender development fund as a Patron member while Riccitiello was CEO of Unity, I also gave him positive feedback and sincerely thanked him again, telling him how important Blender is to Unity game developers, and how important it is for them to work well together. Unity Joins the Blender Development Fund as a Patron Member: https://www.blender.org/press/unity-joins-the-blender-development-fund-as-a-patron-member/ https://www.blender.org/press/unity-joins-the-blender-develo... I recommended he watch Ton Roosendaal's excellent "Money doesn't interest me" interview, in which he does not hold back on his feelings about Autodesk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJEWOTZnFeg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJEWOTZnFeg And also this video of Ton getting hit by a ceiling tile during a talk. (Presumably perpetrated by Autodesk!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJwG-qt-sgk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJwG-qt-sgk Then when Joe Biden endorsed Unity three times in his inaugural address, I asked Riccitiello how much Unity paid for that product placement, but he wouldn't tell me: >"With Unity we can do great things, important things!" >"For without Unity, there is no peace, only bitterness and fury." >"And Unity is the path forward." >-Joe Biden's inaugural address. Then after Unity recently announced they're pulling the rug out from under their developers, I posted to Riccitiello's Facebook page a screen snapshot of the github star ranking table showing that Godot suddenly had a 535.6% increase in stars, and sincerely thanked him again, writing "Thank you for your substantial contribution to open source gaming engines, at the expense of your own company!" So I'm pretty sure he's aware of open source software, but I don't think he actually meant to benefit the Godot project so much at the expense of Unity. The Godot folks, who have greatly benefited from this fiasco through no fault of their own, immediately condemned the death threat that somebody (who turned out to be a Unity employee) posted, which caused Unity to cancel an event and close their office. https://twitter.com/godotengine/status/1702413121086705951 https://twitter.com/godotengine/status/1702413121086705951 >Godot Engine @godotengine >We extend our sincere solidarity and support to the Unity workers. The recent reactions have left us profoundly disappointed. Threats of violence should have no place in the gamedev community. The truth behind the Unity "Death Threats": https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/16j21jg/the_truth_behind_the_unity_death_threats/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/16j21jg/the_truth_... >Update: San Francisco police told Polygon that officers responded to Unity’s San Francisco office “regarding a threats incident.” A “reporting party” told police that “an employee made a threat towards his employer using social media.” The employee that made the threat works in an office outside of California, according to the police statement. Reddit thread from 8 years ago, with recent posts: https://www.reddit.com/r/Unity3D/comments/3cxogb/til_unity_ceo_john_riccitiello_was_former_ceo_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Unity3D/comments/3cxogb/til_unity_c... TIL Unity CEO John Riccitiello was former CEO of EA. He saved EA from declining profits by sellings games EA made online (Origin) rather than physical packages and raising game quality. Also, he's barely known for being CEO at Unity Technologies. >drakfyre 8 yr. ago >I am honestly really pleased the hate has died down. Riccitiello is a pretty damn good CEO and Unity's former CEO (though a SUPER COOL dude) really didn't have the practice nor want to be a CEO of such a rapidly expanding company. >rvc3m8 8 days ago >now, that didn't age well, did it? ;) >drakfyre 7 days ago >No, no it did not, not at all...

jimbob45 3y ago

"What are they going to do? Move to Godot?" I'm a casual observer in this space. Is Unreal not a viable alternative?

tombert 3y ago
That's my point, I think it is! The fact that the Unity executives didn't consider that people will jump ship to Unreal baffles me.