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> Not to mention that Freud was a quack who was more prone to speculation than to science, so if traditional psychotherapy is based on his work then it is likel

> Not to mention that Freud was a quack who was more prone to speculation than to science, so if traditional psychotherapy is based on his work then it is likely built on sand. Wow, that’s rich. Dismissing Freud like this is the most egregious way of conducting a discussion about these topics. Have you also ever thought that Mindfulness and CBT, while effective, are successful in a capitalistic society because ultimately convince us we can change to accept the fundamentals shortcomings and toxicities and inhumane dysfunctions of capitalism? Freud’s take on the mind was revolutionary, Mindfulness and CBT have a solid ground but have become a strong weapon in favor of the preservation of the status quo by convincing us we are just wrong in a perfectly fine environment (which in reality is not fine at all).

scns 3y ago
> Mindfulness and CBT have a solid ground but have become a strong weapon Have to disagree. A weapon is for fighting, and as Siddhartha Gautama said: "What you fight becomes stronger." They are tools IMHO that can help you, if you invest time and effort.
- camillomiller 3y ago
  Ok then let's put it this way. They became weaponized, because they have a great ability in convincing people they're in need of fixing, instead of questioning the dysfunctional and fundamentally unequal society we live in.
  - scns 3y ago
    I think you may be in fight mode and your perception is strongly coloured by it. > convincing people they're in need of fixing Holy smokes Siegmund! I think we all carry some form of trauma that is more than worth healing. I invested 21 years into it and am more than glad i did. Equality is a lovely ideal to strive towards. [Edit] add missing word
orwin 3y ago
I think I said it enough on this website, but my personal experience with 4 psychanalyst led me to believe this is a quackery, a pseudoscience, and actually harmful for people who have real mental issues. And I'm not talking about those weird ideas about autism, that anybody with a brain who worked with autistic children or adults would know to dismiss, or that dumb dream analysis, I'm talking about clinical psychoanalysis and it's 'practical' application. The fact is, solving bipolarity or schizophrenia with psychoanalysis is like solving cancer with homeopathy, except in the second case the practionners have a smudge of ethics and led their patient towards real medical praticiens once the issue is to big for them. Whereas psychanalyst try to extract the most money they can for 15 years, pass the patients between themselves to make the con last longer, and if they're lucky the patient miss their TS, go see a real doctor that in 5 (5!) minutes diagnose bipolarity, then in a day make a bloodtest to be certain, and prescribe lithium. Without mood crisis, the patient can live without pissing of friends and family, and has only lost 15 years and a dozen relationships. In other case, the patient kill themselves.
- camillomiller 3y ago
  I believe your experience might be related to how psychoanalists work in the US (or the country you're from)? Here in Germany it's a highly regulated practice, and believe me, psychoanalysts refuse constantly patients with the pathological problems you describe because they are aware that psychoanalysis' is not fit for those. In fact they are also perfectly aware they are not psychiatrists, and they would never be able to prescribe nor help you get out of any medication.
  - orwin 3y ago
    I'm from France. It's regulated here too. They just think manic phase are 'female hysteria'. They are dangerous and I an certain osteopathic therapy brought more actual knowledge to PT than psychoanalysis ever brought to psychology. At least their Jungian archetype and the 'animus anima' are 50% less sexists that they used to be and are now marketable for 'self help' expert, so I guess they are now able to make money by scamming without endangering people.
jstarfish 3y ago
> Mindfulness and CBT have a solid ground but have become a strong weapon in favor of the preservation of the status quo by convincing us we are just wrong in a perfectly fine environment (which in reality is not fine at all) Becoming copacetic with the reality you actually live in is necessary to surviving any environment. Even dogs and prisoners understand this. Even the rich get depressed and kill themselves. The most deranged people you come across are the ones who cannot accept the fundamental shortcomings, toxicities and inhumane dysfunctions of their environment. Most people don't have the guts for rebellion and are best served making the best of their situation. The ones who have what it takes don't complain, they just go immanentize the eschaton. Look at wartime propaganda/psyops. Your own country will bombard you with positivity. The enemy will bombard you with negativity. One side has an interest in your continued survival. The other is actively trying to kill you.
sershe 3y ago
1) Mindfulness is a few millenia older than capitalism. 2) CBT is also anything but status quo. I think the thing that the above comments mentions is just window dressing for trying to go back to older approaches... it's hilarious how much the workbooks emphasize that no-no, your feelings are not invalid! No, no! Validate your feelings! Soothe yourself! They are totally valid! They just may be "inappropriate for the situation". Or, "unjustified". Or, "not productive". Now that we've got that out of the way and you still believe you are being coddled and totally valid, let's get to making a plan to fix the problem, or at least immersing your face in cold water or doing the opposite action to actually fix things. 3) In any case, shortcomings of capitalism as opposed to what? I think this comment is literally 180, it's one of the wrongest takes I've seen in my entire life. As an immigrant from ex-socialist country, I'd bet the problem with mental health in advanced economies has a lot in common, metaphorically, with the problem of allergies in advanced economies, where the immune system has nothing to do and starts messing up. Capitalism have spoiled you all so much you have become too soft. Instead of validating the feelings and acknowledging emotions, anywhere between 50 to 90% of the people could benefit from some hardening the f- up :) Such as, by suppressing negative emotions.

scns 3y ago

> Mindfulness and CBT have a solid ground but have become a strong weapon Have to disagree. A weapon is for fighting, and as Siddhartha Gautama said: "What you fight becomes stronger." They are tools IMHO that can help you, if you invest time and effort.

camillomiller 3y ago
Ok then let's put it this way. They became weaponized, because they have a great ability in convincing people they're in need of fixing, instead of questioning the dysfunctional and fundamentally unequal society we live in.
- scns 3y ago
  I think you may be in fight mode and your perception is strongly coloured by it. > convincing people they're in need of fixing Holy smokes Siegmund! I think we all carry some form of trauma that is more than worth healing. I invested 21 years into it and am more than glad i did. Equality is a lovely ideal to strive towards. [Edit] add missing word

orwin 3y ago

I think I said it enough on this website, but my personal experience with 4 psychanalyst led me to believe this is a quackery, a pseudoscience, and actually harmful for people who have real mental issues. And I'm not talking about those weird ideas about autism, that anybody with a brain who worked with autistic children or adults would know to dismiss, or that dumb dream analysis, I'm talking about clinical psychoanalysis and it's 'practical' application. The fact is, solving bipolarity or schizophrenia with psychoanalysis is like solving cancer with homeopathy, except in the second case the practionners have a smudge of ethics and led their patient towards real medical praticiens once the issue is to big for them. Whereas psychanalyst try to extract the most money they can for 15 years, pass the patients between themselves to make the con last longer, and if they're lucky the patient miss their TS, go see a real doctor that in 5 (5!) minutes diagnose bipolarity, then in a day make a bloodtest to be certain, and prescribe lithium. Without mood crisis, the patient can live without pissing of friends and family, and has only lost 15 years and a dozen relationships. In other case, the patient kill themselves.

camillomiller 3y ago
I believe your experience might be related to how psychoanalists work in the US (or the country you're from)? Here in Germany it's a highly regulated practice, and believe me, psychoanalysts refuse constantly patients with the pathological problems you describe because they are aware that psychoanalysis' is not fit for those. In fact they are also perfectly aware they are not psychiatrists, and they would never be able to prescribe nor help you get out of any medication.
- orwin 3y ago
  I'm from France. It's regulated here too. They just think manic phase are 'female hysteria'. They are dangerous and I an certain osteopathic therapy brought more actual knowledge to PT than psychoanalysis ever brought to psychology. At least their Jungian archetype and the 'animus anima' are 50% less sexists that they used to be and are now marketable for 'self help' expert, so I guess they are now able to make money by scamming without endangering people.

jstarfish 3y ago

> Mindfulness and CBT have a solid ground but have become a strong weapon in favor of the preservation of the status quo by convincing us we are just wrong in a perfectly fine environment (which in reality is not fine at all) Becoming copacetic with the reality you actually live in is necessary to surviving any environment. Even dogs and prisoners understand this. Even the rich get depressed and kill themselves. The most deranged people you come across are the ones who cannot accept the fundamental shortcomings, toxicities and inhumane dysfunctions of their environment. Most people don't have the guts for rebellion and are best served making the best of their situation. The ones who have what it takes don't complain, they just go immanentize the eschaton. Look at wartime propaganda/psyops. Your own country will bombard you with positivity. The enemy will bombard you with negativity. One side has an interest in your continued survival. The other is actively trying to kill you.

sershe 3y ago

1) Mindfulness is a few millenia older than capitalism. 2) CBT is also anything but status quo. I think the thing that the above comments mentions is just window dressing for trying to go back to older approaches... it's hilarious how much the workbooks emphasize that no-no, your feelings are not invalid! No, no! Validate your feelings! Soothe yourself! They are totally valid! They just may be "inappropriate for the situation". Or, "unjustified". Or, "not productive". Now that we've got that out of the way and you still believe you are being coddled and totally valid, let's get to making a plan to fix the problem, or at least immersing your face in cold water or doing the opposite action to actually fix things. 3) In any case, shortcomings of capitalism as opposed to what? I think this comment is literally 180, it's one of the wrongest takes I've seen in my entire life. As an immigrant from ex-socialist country, I'd bet the problem with mental health in advanced economies has a lot in common, metaphorically, with the problem of allergies in advanced economies, where the immune system has nothing to do and starts messing up. Capitalism have spoiled you all so much you have become too soft. Instead of validating the feelings and acknowledging emotions, anywhere between 50 to 90% of the people could benefit from some hardening the f- up :) Such as, by suppressing negative emotions.