4 ms·

What does "offical" mean in this context? The US does not have an "official" language, but English is the de facto language of government for the national gove

What does "offical" mean in this context? The US does not have an "official" language, but English is the de facto language of government for the national government.

clarionbell 3y ago
Court language essentially. Something that you spoke when talking to royalty, or nobility. Granted, you could speak in a different language, but it would make things more complicated, since, as today, many people are not multilingual. Church mostly worked in latin, as elsewhere in Europe. But sermons used whatever language locals understood. So in many ways it was somewhat like current US situation. Just with much less effort on accommodating other languages.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  I thought sermons were in Latin until well into the 20th century, at least for Catholicism (surely the Protestants broke from it immediately). My aunt was married in a branch of Catholicism that rejected the Second Vatican Council, and I clearly remember the presiding priest chewing us out in Latin
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    Not necessarily so. It's another custom that Protestants lifted from the Catholic Mass. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_sermon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_sermon https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/preaching-medieval-english https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - clarionbell 3y ago
    Rites were in latin yes. But sermons were generally in vernacular. Otherwise there would be little engagement between priest and his parish during the mass. The somewhat, odd, obsession of some Old-Catholic sects with latin is notable but not entirely orthodox. Some info on the subject: https://going-medieval.com/2020/09/04/on-sermons-and-the-vernacular/ https://going-medieval.com/2020/09/04/on-sermons-and-the-ver...
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > I thought sermons were in Latin until well into the 20th century, at least for Catholicism Sermons/homilies were generally in the vernacular, most of the rest of the Mass was in Latin [0]. But its worth noting that prior to 1962, the homily was an optional part of the Mass (medieval rules had encouraged, but not strictly required, it every few Sundays, it wouldn't be a feature of daily Masses or even every Sunday Mass.) > My aunt was married in a branch of Catholicism that rejected the Second Vatican Council, and I clearly remember the presiding priest chewing us out in Latin “Traditionalist” dissenters are often not simply replicating prior practice. [0] in most places, but Chinese, Old Church Slavonic, and a few other languages in particular places.
- eesmith 3y ago
  It can't simply be "court language". Peter III of Russia could barely speak Russian, but that didn't make German the official language of Russia during his rule. I'm certain if I dug further I could find more such cases. If the US had a king, and thus a court, would that automatically make English the official language of the US? No, because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_languages_by_country_and_territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_languages_by_... say Japan has no official language (de facto Japanese) and they do have royalty, so it doesn't appear that simple. My assumption is that 'official' requires some formal decree, but I saw no mention of that in the article.
  - tuatoru 3y ago
    The court language of Russia in the 1760s was French. France was The European Superpower until the aftermath of Napoleon's empire.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      And French continued to be the language of diplomats until up to WW1.
    - eesmith 3y ago
      Ahh, thank you. But French wasn't the official language of Russia, right?
      - clarionbell 3y ago
        Concept of official language is a very new thing. At least in it's current form. It's kind of like 'state' it sort of fits on older institutions, but isn't an exact fit.
        eesmith 3y ago
        Yes. That is why I made the top-level comment - I think the author should have highlighted what made it "official" some 1,000 years ago.
ghaff 3y ago
Specifically the article says of the noble elite, courts, and government. Not sure why the cutoff date. More modern French was considered the court language of Europe and diplomacy until fairly modern times. I’m pretty sure I could dig up an old US passport with French in it.
- mr_toad 3y ago
  The cutoff is the same date that the courts switched to using English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleading_in_English_Act_1362 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleading_in_English_Act_1362
  - eesmith 3y ago
    That answered my question, thanks! French was "the official language of legal proceedings in England" between 1066 and 1362.
- eesmith 3y ago
  Sure, but what makes it "official" while English is not the official language of the US?
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Nothing really except that the courts apparently used it up to the date given per another comment. Whether the US has an “official” language has been a politically fraught topic at times even though it’s obviously de facto English.
    - NeoTar 3y ago
      Indeed - there is an interesting question on Stack Exchange about if a law written and passed in Spanish would be valid (https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/80132/if-congress-passed-a-bill-written-in-a-language-other-than-english-would-it-be https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/80132/if-congress-pa...) - the conclusion (based on my own summation of the discussion) is that it probably would, but it would cause some problems due to a lack of precedent / legal definitions. There hasn't been a federal law passed in anything other than English, but there have been early state laws (in Louisiana) passed in French (https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/80132/if-congress-passed-a-bill-written-in-a-language-other-than-english-would-it-be https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/80132/if-congress-pa...)

What does "offical" mean in this context? The US does not have an "official" language, but English is the de facto language of government for the national government.

clarionbell 3y ago

Court language essentially. Something that you spoke when talking to royalty, or nobility. Granted, you could speak in a different language, but it would make things more complicated, since, as today, many people are not multilingual. Church mostly worked in latin, as elsewhere in Europe. But sermons used whatever language locals understood. So in many ways it was somewhat like current US situation. Just with much less effort on accommodating other languages.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
I thought sermons were in Latin until well into the 20th century, at least for Catholicism (surely the Protestants broke from it immediately). My aunt was married in a branch of Catholicism that rejected the Second Vatican Council, and I clearly remember the presiding priest chewing us out in Latin
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Not necessarily so. It's another custom that Protestants lifted from the Catholic Mass. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_sermon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_sermon https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/preaching-medieval-english https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- clarionbell 3y ago
  Rites were in latin yes. But sermons were generally in vernacular. Otherwise there would be little engagement between priest and his parish during the mass. The somewhat, odd, obsession of some Old-Catholic sects with latin is notable but not entirely orthodox. Some info on the subject: https://going-medieval.com/2020/09/04/on-sermons-and-the-vernacular/ https://going-medieval.com/2020/09/04/on-sermons-and-the-ver...
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > I thought sermons were in Latin until well into the 20th century, at least for Catholicism Sermons/homilies were generally in the vernacular, most of the rest of the Mass was in Latin [0]. But its worth noting that prior to 1962, the homily was an optional part of the Mass (medieval rules had encouraged, but not strictly required, it every few Sundays, it wouldn't be a feature of daily Masses or even every Sunday Mass.) > My aunt was married in a branch of Catholicism that rejected the Second Vatican Council, and I clearly remember the presiding priest chewing us out in Latin “Traditionalist” dissenters are often not simply replicating prior practice. [0] in most places, but Chinese, Old Church Slavonic, and a few other languages in particular places.
eesmith 3y ago
It can't simply be "court language". Peter III of Russia could barely speak Russian, but that didn't make German the official language of Russia during his rule. I'm certain if I dug further I could find more such cases. If the US had a king, and thus a court, would that automatically make English the official language of the US? No, because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_languages_by_country_and_territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_languages_by_... say Japan has no official language (de facto Japanese) and they do have royalty, so it doesn't appear that simple. My assumption is that 'official' requires some formal decree, but I saw no mention of that in the article.
- tuatoru 3y ago
  The court language of Russia in the 1760s was French. France was The European Superpower until the aftermath of Napoleon's empire.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    And French continued to be the language of diplomats until up to WW1.
  - eesmith 3y ago
    Ahh, thank you. But French wasn't the official language of Russia, right?
    - clarionbell 3y ago
      Concept of official language is a very new thing. At least in it's current form. It's kind of like 'state' it sort of fits on older institutions, but isn't an exact fit.
      - eesmith 3y ago
        Yes. That is why I made the top-level comment - I think the author should have highlighted what made it "official" some 1,000 years ago.

ghaff 3y ago

Specifically the article says of the noble elite, courts, and government. Not sure why the cutoff date. More modern French was considered the court language of Europe and diplomacy until fairly modern times. I’m pretty sure I could dig up an old US passport with French in it.

mr_toad 3y ago
The cutoff is the same date that the courts switched to using English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleading_in_English_Act_1362 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleading_in_English_Act_1362
- eesmith 3y ago
  That answered my question, thanks! French was "the official language of legal proceedings in England" between 1066 and 1362.
eesmith 3y ago
Sure, but what makes it "official" while English is not the official language of the US?
- ghaff 3y ago
  Nothing really except that the courts apparently used it up to the date given per another comment. Whether the US has an “official” language has been a politically fraught topic at times even though it’s obviously de facto English.
  - NeoTar 3y ago
    Indeed - there is an interesting question on Stack Exchange about if a law written and passed in Spanish would be valid (https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/80132/if-congress-passed-a-bill-written-in-a-language-other-than-english-would-it-be https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/80132/if-congress-pa...) - the conclusion (based on my own summation of the discussion) is that it probably would, but it would cause some problems due to a lack of precedent / legal definitions. There hasn't been a federal law passed in anything other than English, but there have been early state laws (in Louisiana) passed in French (https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/80132/if-congress-passed-a-bill-written-in-a-language-other-than-english-would-it-be https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/80132/if-congress-pa...)