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> Soon, however, teachers and government officials sought ways to evaluate rapidly increasing numbers of students. In 1900, roughly 10 percent of teens attended

> Soon, however, teachers and government officials sought ways to evaluate rapidly increasing numbers of students. In 1900, roughly 10 percent of teens attended high school; by 1940, some 70 percent did. It reminds me of looking at a 1930s census, not long ago, while compiling a family history. Some of the adults on a rural farm were listed as having completed "4th grade". It's rather difficult to imagine a world where that was the norm and to compare how different our world now must be, when nearly everyone has completed high school.

JasonFruit 3y ago
I wonder how much the actual average level of education has changed, though the topics may be different. Could those 4th-grade dropouts read and understand a newspaper, calculate how many pounds of barley it takes to plant the south field now that we cleared that new area, and work out a 1-in-10 slope for the new shed roof? I bet most of them could, and that a lot of the time the average person spends in school now is not as well-directed toward their likely life needs — which may be less easily ascertained.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > a lot of the time the average person spends in school now is not as well-directed toward their likely life needs When most people lived on farms (up until the 1950s), there was less need to be good factory workers. But there were more factories offering more employment in America, so the stats say you are correct. https://qz.com/1314814/universal-education-was-first-promoted-by-industrialists-who-wanted-docile-factory-workers https://qz.com/1314814/universal-education-was-first-promote...
- flangola7 3y ago
  What did they receive for humanities though? School is and should be about you making a better more complete member of society, not just a better cog in the economy.
- diogenes4 3y ago
  > i bet most of them could, and that a lot of the time the average person spends in school now is not as well-directed toward their likely life needs — which may be less easily ascertained. Interesting to order it this way because, as the engine of meritocracy, education is supposed to determine life direction, not be reflective of it. Of course this isn't how people actually think of it, but we don't live in a meritocracy either now do we
- pixl97 3y ago
  And pretty much all those jobs you're talking about are gone or low paying. Farmers aren't calculating how many pounds of barley per acre they need. They are operating computer controlled heavy equipment that does a huge amount of the calculations for them because someone thousands of miles away wrote magicial electric symbols in sand. The world is a vastly more complicated place now.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > operating computer controlled heavy equipment that does a huge amount of the calculations for them They're also measuring soil nutrient and nitrogen content, integrating global price signals into their sourcing and supply chain, and paying attention to the genetic characteristics of their cultivars. I'd wager American farmers, today, are vastly more knowledgeable about their craft, at a fundamental level, than farmers in the 1930s.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Wow. Someone doesn't spend time in rural areas. Where I live it's almost all third generation "family farms", those that are still here after others have left. The farms are bigger but they're still at core family farms and businesses with capital costs in the millions to tens of millions, run and worked by people that farm and almost all whom have other jobs and|or businesses in parallel. One typical neighbour is planting out several hundred acres, has a side supply business with the grain coop to site several five story concrete grain silos, owns and runs four or five local school buses (and employs drivers) with a partnership in a bee hive placement business (for honey but mainly for pollination in the district). Between them they all have a basic grasp of (with different members specialising) building, radio equipment, GPS equipment and data managment, double entry bookkeeping and employee paperwork for a million+ per annum turn over, mechanics for cars, tractors, bob cats, etc, agonomy, animal health, first aid, welding, carpentry, . . . Hmm, while I think of it the same family has the local volunteer fire chief (another part time job) who handles bush fire preparedness in the area, fire breaks etc. There's no reliance on "magical someones" thousands of miles away - those services are used, sure - but they're not counted on to be always available or there when needed - farming would just grind to halt with that level of unquestioning dependance.
- LarsDu88 3y ago
  Take a look at this entrance exam to Harvard from 1869: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvardexam.pdf http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvarde... Good luck finding high school students today who could get a good score on this test. There's vastly more emphasis on classical knowledge: Greek, Latin, ancient history, mathematical proofs...
  - wbl 3y ago
    If Greek or Latin we're still requirements for Harvard high school students would become fluent.
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      They sure would enjoy the salutatory speeches delivered at commencement: https://youtu.be/LYewkFKPPhs?si=egbRqSO2lMVxIMzz https://youtu.be/LYewkFKPPhs?si=egbRqSO2lMVxIMzz
  - bhaney 3y ago
    I can't even figure out what some of these are asking. Question 5 of the History and Geography section is just "Leonidas, Pausanias, Lysander." Am I supposed to write about what they have in common? Who they each were? When and where they ruled? Other questions seem to include some form of instruction while being equally short ("Compare Athens with Sparta") but that one and a couple others are just a topic with seemingly no direction at all.
    - LarsDu88 3y ago
      Heh, obvious a cultured man of knowledge (or anyone who watched the movie 300 and read wikipedia) would know that these are major leaders of Sparta Grant, Sherman, Meade Churchill, Roosevelt, De Gaulle It's to filter the cultured elite from the unread plebes.
  - plorkyeran 3y ago
    I would expect most Harvard-bound high school seniors to be able to breeze through the math section. Geometry was a ninth grade subject for me so I probably would have forgotten some bits if I took this unprepared as a senior, but it wouldn't have taken much studying ro refresh on that. There may be some trick question I'm not noticing, but the Latin section seems extremely simple. Ancient Greek has certainly vanished from HS curriculums, but if Harvard was testing on it two years of Latin and two years of Greek would suffice to pass those sections. I think overall a Harvard-bound student today would do better on this test than a Harvard student from 1869 would do on the SAT, but I'm not sure if that even means anything.
cudgy 3y ago
“It's rather difficult to imagine a world where that was the norm and to compare how different our world now must be, when nearly everyone has completed high school.” Why? Are you sure that there was a significant difference between 4th grade in the 1930’s and 12th grade in modern days? Many students graduate high school barely able to read and write.
- stouset 3y ago
  Surely you’re joking that you don’t think there’s much of a practical difference between an era where 90% of the population had less than eight years of schooling, and one where the overwhelming majority have twelve to sixteen. I mean, you can literally just look up the statistics on literacy rates.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - lmm 3y ago
    > I mean, you can literally just look up the statistics on literacy rates. From what I remember they're shockingly low for a world where everyone finishes high school. IIRC only about 2/3 have even basic functional literacy?
    - stouset 3y ago
      You remember incorrectly. https://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp https://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_State...
  - cudgy 3y ago
    Just because someone went to school longer, doesn’t mean that they learned more or learned skills they need to function in society. Also, schools today are full of distractions, class changes, unnecessary technology, and much larger class sizes than was present in the 1930’s. It's just not the same environment and simply comparing years of attendance is a naive approach.

JasonFruit 3y ago

I wonder how much the actual average level of education has changed, though the topics may be different. Could those 4th-grade dropouts read and understand a newspaper, calculate how many pounds of barley it takes to plant the south field now that we cleared that new area, and work out a 1-in-10 slope for the new shed roof? I bet most of them could, and that a lot of the time the average person spends in school now is not as well-directed toward their likely life needs — which may be less easily ascertained.

drewcoo 3y ago
> a lot of the time the average person spends in school now is not as well-directed toward their likely life needs When most people lived on farms (up until the 1950s), there was less need to be good factory workers. But there were more factories offering more employment in America, so the stats say you are correct. https://qz.com/1314814/universal-education-was-first-promoted-by-industrialists-who-wanted-docile-factory-workers https://qz.com/1314814/universal-education-was-first-promote...
flangola7 3y ago
What did they receive for humanities though? School is and should be about you making a better more complete member of society, not just a better cog in the economy.
diogenes4 3y ago
> i bet most of them could, and that a lot of the time the average person spends in school now is not as well-directed toward their likely life needs — which may be less easily ascertained. Interesting to order it this way because, as the engine of meritocracy, education is supposed to determine life direction, not be reflective of it. Of course this isn't how people actually think of it, but we don't live in a meritocracy either now do we
pixl97 3y ago
And pretty much all those jobs you're talking about are gone or low paying. Farmers aren't calculating how many pounds of barley per acre they need. They are operating computer controlled heavy equipment that does a huge amount of the calculations for them because someone thousands of miles away wrote magicial electric symbols in sand. The world is a vastly more complicated place now.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > operating computer controlled heavy equipment that does a huge amount of the calculations for them They're also measuring soil nutrient and nitrogen content, integrating global price signals into their sourcing and supply chain, and paying attention to the genetic characteristics of their cultivars. I'd wager American farmers, today, are vastly more knowledgeable about their craft, at a fundamental level, than farmers in the 1930s.
- defrost 3y ago
  Wow. Someone doesn't spend time in rural areas. Where I live it's almost all third generation "family farms", those that are still here after others have left. The farms are bigger but they're still at core family farms and businesses with capital costs in the millions to tens of millions, run and worked by people that farm and almost all whom have other jobs and|or businesses in parallel. One typical neighbour is planting out several hundred acres, has a side supply business with the grain coop to site several five story concrete grain silos, owns and runs four or five local school buses (and employs drivers) with a partnership in a bee hive placement business (for honey but mainly for pollination in the district). Between them they all have a basic grasp of (with different members specialising) building, radio equipment, GPS equipment and data managment, double entry bookkeeping and employee paperwork for a million+ per annum turn over, mechanics for cars, tractors, bob cats, etc, agonomy, animal health, first aid, welding, carpentry, . . . Hmm, while I think of it the same family has the local volunteer fire chief (another part time job) who handles bush fire preparedness in the area, fire breaks etc. There's no reliance on "magical someones" thousands of miles away - those services are used, sure - but they're not counted on to be always available or there when needed - farming would just grind to halt with that level of unquestioning dependance.
LarsDu88 3y ago
Take a look at this entrance exam to Harvard from 1869: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvardexam.pdf http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvarde... Good luck finding high school students today who could get a good score on this test. There's vastly more emphasis on classical knowledge: Greek, Latin, ancient history, mathematical proofs...
- wbl 3y ago
  If Greek or Latin we're still requirements for Harvard high school students would become fluent.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    They sure would enjoy the salutatory speeches delivered at commencement: https://youtu.be/LYewkFKPPhs?si=egbRqSO2lMVxIMzz https://youtu.be/LYewkFKPPhs?si=egbRqSO2lMVxIMzz
- bhaney 3y ago
  I can't even figure out what some of these are asking. Question 5 of the History and Geography section is just "Leonidas, Pausanias, Lysander." Am I supposed to write about what they have in common? Who they each were? When and where they ruled? Other questions seem to include some form of instruction while being equally short ("Compare Athens with Sparta") but that one and a couple others are just a topic with seemingly no direction at all.
  - LarsDu88 3y ago
    Heh, obvious a cultured man of knowledge (or anyone who watched the movie 300 and read wikipedia) would know that these are major leaders of Sparta Grant, Sherman, Meade Churchill, Roosevelt, De Gaulle It's to filter the cultured elite from the unread plebes.
- plorkyeran 3y ago
  I would expect most Harvard-bound high school seniors to be able to breeze through the math section. Geometry was a ninth grade subject for me so I probably would have forgotten some bits if I took this unprepared as a senior, but it wouldn't have taken much studying ro refresh on that. There may be some trick question I'm not noticing, but the Latin section seems extremely simple. Ancient Greek has certainly vanished from HS curriculums, but if Harvard was testing on it two years of Latin and two years of Greek would suffice to pass those sections. I think overall a Harvard-bound student today would do better on this test than a Harvard student from 1869 would do on the SAT, but I'm not sure if that even means anything.

cudgy 3y ago

“It's rather difficult to imagine a world where that was the norm and to compare how different our world now must be, when nearly everyone has completed high school.” Why? Are you sure that there was a significant difference between 4th grade in the 1930’s and 12th grade in modern days? Many students graduate high school barely able to read and write.

stouset 3y ago
Surely you’re joking that you don’t think there’s much of a practical difference between an era where 90% of the population had less than eight years of schooling, and one where the overwhelming majority have twelve to sixteen. I mean, you can literally just look up the statistics on literacy rates.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- lmm 3y ago
  > I mean, you can literally just look up the statistics on literacy rates. From what I remember they're shockingly low for a world where everyone finishes high school. IIRC only about 2/3 have even basic functional literacy?
  - stouset 3y ago
    You remember incorrectly. https://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp https://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_State...
- cudgy 3y ago
  Just because someone went to school longer, doesn’t mean that they learned more or learned skills they need to function in society. Also, schools today are full of distractions, class changes, unnecessary technology, and much larger class sizes than was present in the 1930’s. It's just not the same environment and simply comparing years of attendance is a naive approach.