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>It feels really nice using products that respect me, as opposed to services that are actively hostile because of advertisers. Hot take, but IMO Windows has fa

>It feels really nice using products that respect me, as opposed to services that are actively hostile because of advertisers. Hot take, but IMO Windows has far more respect for the user than Linux does. Everything is far more QA'd (and designed to be QA-able) and at least tries to minimise user frustration. There are exceptions to this, like "suggestions" in the Start menu, but outside of this it's designed in a user-first way. (Desktop) Linux, on the other hand, seems to be more of an intellectual experiment designed to please the people who are writing it rather than a consumer-focused product. Performing basic tasks are unnecessarily complex, entire design paradigms are thrown out on a whim and compatibility issues continually arise because there's no single dominant standard.

kyruzic 3y ago
None of what you said is true. Use gnome and a popular distribution. Everything will just work out of the box.
- hresvelgr 3y ago
  Eh, honestly with GNOME ymmv. Many API breakages, most recently with extensions in version 45. It's also not very light. GNOME's UX is also quite opinionated but some people like that.
  - kyruzic 3y ago
    I just use gnome, I am sure other desktop environments suit others better. But I know gnome just works. Windows and MacOS have the same issues you pointed out with gnome though.
- behnamoh 3y ago
  > Use gnome ... Yeah no. You often need to install extensions to get icons on the desktop etc., which break when you upgrade Gnome. Talk about user-hostile design.
- hobofan 3y ago
  With popOS maybe, but I would never hand Ubuntu Desktop to a non-dev. I can't remember the last time where it properly installed (including getting NVIDIA drivers working) without using the terminal.
  - iopq 3y ago
    Ubuntu installed just fine for me. Broke on update, though
switch007 3y ago
Is this satire?? Respect for the user… While it forces a reboot While it tries to trick you in to upgrading to 11 While it sends huge amounts of telemetry to Microsoft When it forces you to sign up for an non-local account When it use dark patterns to get you to use Edge and upgrade to Windows 10 When it forces updates on Home users …
- 542458 3y ago
  I agree with most everything else you’ve said, but I feel like I’m using a different windows than everyone else when they talk about “forced reboots”. This never happens to me! I’ve seen prompts, but they were always able to be delayed. Is it something that only kicks in if you go ages without manually rebooting? At a certain point though, I’d say forcing users to install critical security updates is the user-centered option.
  - wpm 3y ago
    It’s not when it reboots in the middle of the night while you had open documents and apps, and the OS didn’t save any of that. However, the forced reboots are trivial to disable in Group Policy.
    - iopq 3y ago
      I can't use Group Policy because when I upgraded from Windows 8, it upgraded to Home edition it's Home edition because that's what came with the laptop's Windows 8, it was never an issue on Windows 8 because you could disable stuff on Windows 8 without using Group Policy
      - Rovoska 3y ago
        There are several ways to safely enable it on home.
  - stelonix 3y ago
    I've been using Windows 10 for the past year and a 4 months now, after some 10 years 100% on Linux. I had to disable a weird setting which would forcefully update and reboot the computer when it considered to be "Not Active". I believe it was called "Active Hours" and by default had no way to turn off: you had to choose some hours of the day when you're supposedly not using it. Lost some work like this and had to do some tinkering, not sure if register or otherwise. Or maybe I just disabled automatic updates I guess. So, in conclusion, no, an OS taking control off my hands forcefully is not user-centered, no matter how much in programming circles updates are seen as "crucial". Nothing is more crucial than the computer being predictable to its owner.
hresvelgr 3y ago
> Hot take, but IMO Windows has far more respect for the user than Linux does. You need to be more specific about what desktop Linux flavours aren't holding up in your eyes because window managers like XFCE and Cinnamon are bulletproof as far as I'm concerned and I've never had issues with them. Especially XFCE. > there's no single dominant standard. This is a common criticism and I totally get you here. Not knowing what's going to work for you is annoying and truthfully, no one really wants to shop around for window managers and the only reason I know what's good in the first place is because I spent weeks in my youth test driving everything available, something I no longer have the energy for.
dade_ 3y ago
Windows has never respected users. Not in version 3.0, and not today in 11. Millennium Edition and Vista were particularly egregious, and 11 took it to a brave new world. There is no such thing as a single Linux experience, each distribution targets different personas and goals. If you want a curated Linux desktop experience, then try Elementary OS. It is very aligned to a Mac experience.
chillbill 3y ago
[dead]
jxi 3y ago
There's more ads on a clean install of Windows than most streets of New York City. Why does a professional OS come with Candy Crush installed by default?
magic_hamster 3y ago
> (Desktop) Linux, on the other hand, seems to be more of an intellectual experiment designed to please the people who are writing it rather than a consumer-focused product Honestly can't tell if you're joking, but I guess yes. Linux is the most stable OS I've ever used. There's a reason most mission critical and online services that require constant uptime run almost exclusively on Linux. Windows used to have a nice GUI attached to a mostly unstable system. That was 20 years ago. Now Windows feels like a predatory product that's borderline unusable.
- laserbeam 3y ago
  > There's a reason most mission critical and online services that require constant uptime run almost exclusively on Linux. That argument only applies to servers. Places where you don't need to wrangle x11, the audio stack, gpu drivers for less common cards, conflicting gtk and qt versions for different apps you might use on a whim, hidpi support in old apps, theming issues... I've no idea how many of these are still a plague these days, but they certainly have been for long. Servers are way more predictable linux configurations. For desktop, win32 is as solid as it gets (too bad it's shipped within a desktop filled with increasingly many dark patterns).
  - davkan 3y ago
    Audio has come a long way, pipewire just works in my experience. And Wayland is in daily driver territory, so X11 is only needed if you have some specific requirements. Steamdeck/proton has massively improved gaming. That’s not to say it’s not still Linux, there will be some tinkering. But compared to a decade ago there’s way less banging my head against the wall. If you’re already competent in administration Linux you might find it’s time to revisit the desktop.
  - iopq 3y ago
    I don't need to wrangle with x11 because I use Wayland, and I don't need to wrangle with the audio stack because I use pipewire What year is this post from?
  - Lutger 3y ago
gridlocdev 3y ago
Maybe 5-10 years ago, but today’s Linux desktop has evolved to be much more user friendly and stable. Applications have a standard containerized format (Flatpak), the most popular distributions ship a software store to update your apps and system with one click, and the stability of things has improved to a point where (in my experience) things almost never break unless you’re running the absolute bleeding-edge latest-gen hardware. I would highly recommend giving it a shot if you haven’t at least tried it as a daily driver before. (To get started, just look up a tutorial for how to dual-boot with Windows or play around with it in a Virtual Machine)
replwoacause 3y ago
This is an extraordinarily uninformed take
resonious 3y ago
Your take on desktop Linux is quite accurate, but Windows feels less QA'd than Linux to me nowadays. Windows will give me a popup begging for a reboot, then when I reboot it asks for another reboot. For months there was a bug where the settings window would become tiny and resizing didn't work. The Microsoft Teams "get started" window takes on the order of 30 seconds to close - that is I click the X button, no immediate reaction, and then it closes half a minute later.
Aeolun 3y ago
> Everything is far more QA'd (and designed to be QA-able) and at least tries to minimise user frustration. There are exceptions to this, like "suggestions" in the Start menu, but outside of this it's designed in a user-first way. I feel like windows is deliberate about being user hostile. Just because they're very slick about being user hostile doesn't make it any different. Linux feels like someone with my best interests at heart made a good attempt and half succeeded.
iopq 3y ago
I couldn't disable the anti-virus in Windows 10 that kept checking my hard drive (yes, my laptop is so old it has a hard drive) and making it slow down then I just downloaded a program that let me disable it, and I also disabled the firewall but without the firewall service, I can't get updates (why is that service a pre-requisite for updates?), and I forgot how to re-enable it because I don't remember what program I used to disable it since it's some hack anyway so now my Windows partition is not really usable, and I'm typing this on Linux where I can just change stuff without breaking everything
Lutger 3y ago
Your perception of desktop linux and its creators sounds like it is based on a cursory trial from at least ten years ago, frankly it sounds quite disrespectful to the makers.
skummetmaelk 3y ago
What's more complex. Executing a command in the terminal or clicking through 117 nested layers of menus and using regedit to solve your problem?

kyruzic 3y ago

None of what you said is true. Use gnome and a popular distribution. Everything will just work out of the box.

hresvelgr 3y ago
Eh, honestly with GNOME ymmv. Many API breakages, most recently with extensions in version 45. It's also not very light. GNOME's UX is also quite opinionated but some people like that.
- kyruzic 3y ago
  I just use gnome, I am sure other desktop environments suit others better. But I know gnome just works. Windows and MacOS have the same issues you pointed out with gnome though.
behnamoh 3y ago
> Use gnome ... Yeah no. You often need to install extensions to get icons on the desktop etc., which break when you upgrade Gnome. Talk about user-hostile design.
hobofan 3y ago
With popOS maybe, but I would never hand Ubuntu Desktop to a non-dev. I can't remember the last time where it properly installed (including getting NVIDIA drivers working) without using the terminal.
- iopq 3y ago
  Ubuntu installed just fine for me. Broke on update, though

switch007 3y ago

Is this satire?? Respect for the user… While it forces a reboot While it tries to trick you in to upgrading to 11 While it sends huge amounts of telemetry to Microsoft When it forces you to sign up for an non-local account When it use dark patterns to get you to use Edge and upgrade to Windows 10 When it forces updates on Home users …

542458 3y ago
I agree with most everything else you’ve said, but I feel like I’m using a different windows than everyone else when they talk about “forced reboots”. This never happens to me! I’ve seen prompts, but they were always able to be delayed. Is it something that only kicks in if you go ages without manually rebooting? At a certain point though, I’d say forcing users to install critical security updates is the user-centered option.
- wpm 3y ago
  It’s not when it reboots in the middle of the night while you had open documents and apps, and the OS didn’t save any of that. However, the forced reboots are trivial to disable in Group Policy.
  - iopq 3y ago
    I can't use Group Policy because when I upgraded from Windows 8, it upgraded to Home edition it's Home edition because that's what came with the laptop's Windows 8, it was never an issue on Windows 8 because you could disable stuff on Windows 8 without using Group Policy
    - Rovoska 3y ago
      There are several ways to safely enable it on home.
- stelonix 3y ago
  I've been using Windows 10 for the past year and a 4 months now, after some 10 years 100% on Linux. I had to disable a weird setting which would forcefully update and reboot the computer when it considered to be "Not Active". I believe it was called "Active Hours" and by default had no way to turn off: you had to choose some hours of the day when you're supposedly not using it. Lost some work like this and had to do some tinkering, not sure if register or otherwise. Or maybe I just disabled automatic updates I guess. So, in conclusion, no, an OS taking control off my hands forcefully is not user-centered, no matter how much in programming circles updates are seen as "crucial". Nothing is more crucial than the computer being predictable to its owner.

hresvelgr 3y ago

> Hot take, but IMO Windows has far more respect for the user than Linux does. You need to be more specific about what desktop Linux flavours aren't holding up in your eyes because window managers like XFCE and Cinnamon are bulletproof as far as I'm concerned and I've never had issues with them. Especially XFCE. > there's no single dominant standard. This is a common criticism and I totally get you here. Not knowing what's going to work for you is annoying and truthfully, no one really wants to shop around for window managers and the only reason I know what's good in the first place is because I spent weeks in my youth test driving everything available, something I no longer have the energy for.

dade_ 3y ago

Windows has never respected users. Not in version 3.0, and not today in 11. Millennium Edition and Vista were particularly egregious, and 11 took it to a brave new world. There is no such thing as a single Linux experience, each distribution targets different personas and goals. If you want a curated Linux desktop experience, then try Elementary OS. It is very aligned to a Mac experience.

chillbill 3y ago

[dead]

jxi 3y ago

There's more ads on a clean install of Windows than most streets of New York City. Why does a professional OS come with Candy Crush installed by default?

magic_hamster 3y ago

> (Desktop) Linux, on the other hand, seems to be more of an intellectual experiment designed to please the people who are writing it rather than a consumer-focused product Honestly can't tell if you're joking, but I guess yes. Linux is the most stable OS I've ever used. There's a reason most mission critical and online services that require constant uptime run almost exclusively on Linux. Windows used to have a nice GUI attached to a mostly unstable system. That was 20 years ago. Now Windows feels like a predatory product that's borderline unusable.

laserbeam 3y ago
> There's a reason most mission critical and online services that require constant uptime run almost exclusively on Linux. That argument only applies to servers. Places where you don't need to wrangle x11, the audio stack, gpu drivers for less common cards, conflicting gtk and qt versions for different apps you might use on a whim, hidpi support in old apps, theming issues... I've no idea how many of these are still a plague these days, but they certainly have been for long. Servers are way more predictable linux configurations. For desktop, win32 is as solid as it gets (too bad it's shipped within a desktop filled with increasingly many dark patterns).
- davkan 3y ago
  Audio has come a long way, pipewire just works in my experience. And Wayland is in daily driver territory, so X11 is only needed if you have some specific requirements. Steamdeck/proton has massively improved gaming. That’s not to say it’s not still Linux, there will be some tinkering. But compared to a decade ago there’s way less banging my head against the wall. If you’re already competent in administration Linux you might find it’s time to revisit the desktop.
- iopq 3y ago
  I don't need to wrangle with x11 because I use Wayland, and I don't need to wrangle with the audio stack because I use pipewire What year is this post from?
- Lutger 3y ago

gridlocdev 3y ago

Maybe 5-10 years ago, but today’s Linux desktop has evolved to be much more user friendly and stable. Applications have a standard containerized format (Flatpak), the most popular distributions ship a software store to update your apps and system with one click, and the stability of things has improved to a point where (in my experience) things almost never break unless you’re running the absolute bleeding-edge latest-gen hardware. I would highly recommend giving it a shot if you haven’t at least tried it as a daily driver before. (To get started, just look up a tutorial for how to dual-boot with Windows or play around with it in a Virtual Machine)

replwoacause 3y ago

This is an extraordinarily uninformed take

resonious 3y ago

Your take on desktop Linux is quite accurate, but Windows feels less QA'd than Linux to me nowadays. Windows will give me a popup begging for a reboot, then when I reboot it asks for another reboot. For months there was a bug where the settings window would become tiny and resizing didn't work. The Microsoft Teams "get started" window takes on the order of 30 seconds to close - that is I click the X button, no immediate reaction, and then it closes half a minute later.

Aeolun 3y ago

> Everything is far more QA'd (and designed to be QA-able) and at least tries to minimise user frustration. There are exceptions to this, like "suggestions" in the Start menu, but outside of this it's designed in a user-first way. I feel like windows is deliberate about being user hostile. Just because they're very slick about being user hostile doesn't make it any different. Linux feels like someone with my best interests at heart made a good attempt and half succeeded.

iopq 3y ago

I couldn't disable the anti-virus in Windows 10 that kept checking my hard drive (yes, my laptop is so old it has a hard drive) and making it slow down then I just downloaded a program that let me disable it, and I also disabled the firewall but without the firewall service, I can't get updates (why is that service a pre-requisite for updates?), and I forgot how to re-enable it because I don't remember what program I used to disable it since it's some hack anyway so now my Windows partition is not really usable, and I'm typing this on Linux where I can just change stuff without breaking everything

Lutger 3y ago

Your perception of desktop linux and its creators sounds like it is based on a cursory trial from at least ten years ago, frankly it sounds quite disrespectful to the makers.

skummetmaelk 3y ago

What's more complex. Executing a command in the terminal or clicking through 117 nested layers of menus and using regedit to solve your problem?