4 ms·

So India should just accept being called a murderer without evidence, and expulsion of its diplomat as well as Trudeau’s clear support to Khalistanis in Canada.

by yumraj 3y ago

So India should just accept being called a murderer without evidence, and expulsion of its diplomat as well as Trudeau’s clear support to Khalistanis in Canada. I don’t think so. The onus is on Canada to provide evidence, not on India. Remember, innocent until proven guilty - or would you like that legal principal to be changed? Secondly, I’ll say that silence is an admission of guilt. India is daring Trudeau to show evidence or retract.

dghlsakjg 3y ago
Innocent until proven guilty isn't a legal concept that applies to international relations, it is a colloquial phrase that clarifies rights in certain criminal cases. But also, "silence is an admission of guilt" is in direct contradiction to innocent until proven guilty. There are a variety of reasons why Canada might not provide proof to your satisfaction. One might be that it would expose intelligence channels that they are trying to keep alive (literally, in some cases). It has also only been a few days, and there is likely some pretty serious maneuvering on both sides where withholding information is important. I can also assure you that most Canadians, including the PM do not care in particular about "Khalistanis", or really know what that means in the context of Indian politics. Before this week, I would be surprised if most Canadians knew there was a rift between Hindus and Sikhs Canada does need to provide proof, but in Canadian politics you simply don't make an announcement like this as the PM without strong evidence.
- yumraj 3y ago
  So, I'm assuming that tomorrow Indian PM can make a claim that Canadian agents (CSIS?) was behind it and not provide any evidence. That'll be equivalent and acceptable right? India has provided ample evidence including via Interpol (whatever the process is called, red something notice or whatever) regarding various Khalistanis and Canada hasn't acted. Culprits from Air India bombing in the 80s were acquitted since Canadian intelligence had decided to erase evidence. Just look at the videos of the Gurudwara in question, it has posters calling for assassination of Indian diplomats. Graffiti was painted in Hindu temples in Canada. Etc. Etc. It is very clear that Canadian governments and politicians have a soft spot for Khalistanis since they constitute a sizeable vote bank. I believe NDP leader is also a Khalistan sympathizer, has to be if he wants Sikh votes in Canada. Having said that, I still believe that this is not a rift between Hindus and Sikhs. This is limited to a vocal, but powerful, minority of Sikh diaspora. Khalistan is a non-issue within India, but can flare up which is why governments need to be careful. Edit: I have no idea how good/bad Canada's National Post is, but I found this to be a rather logical opinion piece : https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canadas-remarkably-slapdash-assassination-accusation https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canadas-remarkably-slapdash...
  - favorited 3y ago
    > So, I'm assuming that tomorrow Indian PM can make a claim that Canadian agents (CSIS?) was behind it and not provide any evidence. Obviously, yes. This isn't exactly a new phenomenon - governments do this all the time.
  - deanCommie 3y ago
    > Culprits from Air India bombing in the 80s were acquitted since Canadian intelligence had decided to erase evidence. The Air India bombing killed 268 Canadian citizens. I do not understand how anyone can begin to imply that the Canadian Government would be more interested in "protecting" Khalistani terrorists than providing justice for their own citizens. Was it a catastrophic prosecution and investigation? Yes. But to jump to malice for something that every Canadian wanted justice for is ludicrous. > Khalistan is a non-issue within India Pretty sure it's a fairly significant issue inside Punjab. Or is your implication that the rest of Hindu India doesn't consider their opinion important? If so, you've just self-explained why the Khalistan movement exists in the first place. > I have no idea how good/bad Canada's National Post is The National Post was founded by one of the 2 main inspirations for the character of Logan Roy on succession. Overall they do not lean TOO conservative (https://www.allsides.com/news-source/national-post-media-bias https://www.allsides.com/news-source/national-post-media-bia...), however these days Justin Trudeau inspires INTENSE hatred from those even mildly conservative in Canada, and they foam at the mouth to criticism him for anything, especially when it fits into their narrative of him being Too Young, Too Arrogant, and Not Respected On The International Stage.
    - yumraj 3y ago
      > Pretty sure it's a fairly significant issue inside Punjab. Or is your implication that the rest of Hindu India doesn't consider their opinion important? Do you have evidence to support that? Khalistan has been a non-issue in Punjab since the late 80s or so. There is no militancy nor is this an issue during elections or in the manifesto of any political party. Akali Dal, which is kinda Sikh religious party is not in government for last 2-3 elections and before that I believe it was in coalition with BJP, the so called Hindu-nationalist party, which is currently in power in center. Current and previous state governments are from centrist national parties. Whether or not it is discussed in hushed tones or not is something obviously I don’t know. Can it flare up again? Sure it can, and that is the hope of the Khalistanis in Canada and fear of people in India, which is why the sensitivity. May be a hyperbole, but when is comes to Khalistanis, Canada is playing with fire shattering these terrorists, many of whom have links with Punjabi organized crime and it is going to bite them hard. Sikh Gurudwaras have banners calling for assassination of Indian diplomats. I don’t know of any other civilized nation that would allow that to happen.
- vjust 3y ago
  The Khalistan movement found a fertile breeding ground in Canada about 40 years ago. They bombed an airline (AirIndia flight 182) in the 80s, the terrorists who plotted walk free in Canada to this day. Additionally, any Sikh , in Vancouver, who dissents with the Khalistan idea is asking for trouble - its a mafia. This tumor in Canada's politics has been allowed to fester, and now their PM is hostage because he is a minority party , one wrong move and he's out of power. Assassinations and hit jobs are common. In 1984, leaders were groomed, there were riots over Khalistan and a major political assasination of PM Indira Gandhi. I wonder what other Sikh leader is being groomed, this time in Canada - to blow up in the Canadian political scene. When the Khalistan govt. crackdown, and violent riots happened in India in 1984/85 I saw that first hand. These fugitives from India are a mix of Political aspiration (nothing wrong there), bigotry, criminal mafia, and vengeful militias that wields political power in Canada - Canada has opened its doors to trouble. Some of the grievances are no doubt legit, but there is (effectively/relatively) zero religious repression of Sikhs in India (unlike other minorities in India who have experienced problems, based on their religious views, that are covered in the media). The vast majority of Sikhs want nothing to do with these extremists. Sure they want to protect their distinct identity, and culture, a beautiful thing in itself. Obviously, the Indian govt can do much more and be more effective if it tries, within its own borders - but thats a matter of political will or games. But India has already paid the price, and been there. Canada has no clue they're dealing with a major social/political/criminal nuisance.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    An order of magnitude more Canadians died on that flight than Indians. Canada has a higher percentage of Sikh residents than India at this point. This issue isn’t exclusively Indian. The issue is that an extrajudicial, extraterritorial killing of a foreign citizen is a pretty serious step to take. There is no evidence that India tried to extradite or otherwise bring this gentleman to justice, nor what exactly his crime would be. India has accused him of a lot with not a lot of specificity. Flip this on its head: if Canada were to identify the assassins, would it be appropriate to send Canadian agents to India to have them assassinated? How would Indians react to such an act?
    - 3y ago
orwin 3y ago
I really disagree with your second point. Silence and carry on is what false accusations deserve. The issue is, I don't think Modi can afford to stay silent, whether the accusations are true or not.
- yumraj 3y ago
  I respect your disagreement, and in some cases perhaps yes - letting the barking dogs bark and ignoring them might be the best policy. But I feel that in the given the context, both external and internal in India, Indian government had to react rather than let silence be assumed to be an admission of guilt. That would have been worse since it frees people to draw their own conclusions. Anyway, I'm just an observer. This is a royal mess and hope it gets resolved quickly, though I doubt it.
- whatisyour 3y ago
  > Silence and carry on is what false accusations deserve. Only if there is a robust justice system which will protect you from the effects of false accusation. International law and a lot of countries not as developed as the west have no such systems. People in less developed nations don't have that luxury.
bsder 3y ago
If the accusations weren't true, India would just denounce it and move on. The tit for tat means that everything is real, and India is simply pissed about being called out on it. Trudeau isn't going to open his mouth on a false accusation that is just going to cause him grief.
- foobiekr 3y ago
  this, exactly
- vjust 3y ago
  Even if the accusations are true, India will not respond. To protect the lives of Indian nationals in Canada , and to protect the Indian high commission and ensure staff safety is paramount for them. Because, if I was an Indian who had the opposite opinion ( to these Khalistan people) - I’d be fearing for my safety- that’s a reflection of how much ‘rule of law’ these people will apply.Months ago these Khalistan activists vandalized the Indian consulate. The so-called Canadian rule of law seems pretty selective. This activist who was killed was an illegal immigrant and criminal fugitive, and Canada PM wants to protect his interests. It’s clearly political pressure and the rule of law might be an excuse . I’m pretty sure there’s other nations that have carried hit jobs in Canada - China , Saudi Arabia etc and we never hear about those. The leader of NDP is a Sikh and is kingmaker in Canada politics- I have a feeling Trudeau is just trying to cling to his job
- yumraj 3y ago
  > Trudeau isn't going to open his mouth on a false accusation that is just going to cause him grief. This has to be a joke, or naivety. Trudeau is a politician, he’s no saint. As such no stranger to lying or fabricating things, especially after a really bad G20. The timing, immediately after G20 is also rather suspect.
  - bsder 3y ago
    > Trudeau is a politician, he’s no saint. As such no stranger to lying or fabricating things, This accusation IS causing him grief--right now. If Trudeau announced this, he perceives that A) announcing this gives him an advantage somehow or B) not announcing it will cause him more grief that announcing it. Now, it could be that Trudeau is a complete and utter dolt--I haven't been tracking Candian politics particularly strongly. It could also be that Modi somehow really pissed Trudeau off. However, successful politicians don't generally spout lines that can be factually refuted or that can be verfied to cause allies problems. Trumpistan is the exception, not the rule.

by yumraj 3y ago

dghlsakjg 3y ago

Innocent until proven guilty isn't a legal concept that applies to international relations, it is a colloquial phrase that clarifies rights in certain criminal cases. But also, "silence is an admission of guilt" is in direct contradiction to innocent until proven guilty. There are a variety of reasons why Canada might not provide proof to your satisfaction. One might be that it would expose intelligence channels that they are trying to keep alive (literally, in some cases). It has also only been a few days, and there is likely some pretty serious maneuvering on both sides where withholding information is important. I can also assure you that most Canadians, including the PM do not care in particular about "Khalistanis", or really know what that means in the context of Indian politics. Before this week, I would be surprised if most Canadians knew there was a rift between Hindus and Sikhs Canada does need to provide proof, but in Canadian politics you simply don't make an announcement like this as the PM without strong evidence.

yumraj 3y ago
So, I'm assuming that tomorrow Indian PM can make a claim that Canadian agents (CSIS?) was behind it and not provide any evidence. That'll be equivalent and acceptable right? India has provided ample evidence including via Interpol (whatever the process is called, red something notice or whatever) regarding various Khalistanis and Canada hasn't acted. Culprits from Air India bombing in the 80s were acquitted since Canadian intelligence had decided to erase evidence. Just look at the videos of the Gurudwara in question, it has posters calling for assassination of Indian diplomats. Graffiti was painted in Hindu temples in Canada. Etc. Etc. It is very clear that Canadian governments and politicians have a soft spot for Khalistanis since they constitute a sizeable vote bank. I believe NDP leader is also a Khalistan sympathizer, has to be if he wants Sikh votes in Canada. Having said that, I still believe that this is not a rift between Hindus and Sikhs. This is limited to a vocal, but powerful, minority of Sikh diaspora. Khalistan is a non-issue within India, but can flare up which is why governments need to be careful. Edit: I have no idea how good/bad Canada's National Post is, but I found this to be a rather logical opinion piece : https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canadas-remarkably-slapdash-assassination-accusation https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canadas-remarkably-slapdash...
- favorited 3y ago
  > So, I'm assuming that tomorrow Indian PM can make a claim that Canadian agents (CSIS?) was behind it and not provide any evidence. Obviously, yes. This isn't exactly a new phenomenon - governments do this all the time.
- deanCommie 3y ago
  > Culprits from Air India bombing in the 80s were acquitted since Canadian intelligence had decided to erase evidence. The Air India bombing killed 268 Canadian citizens. I do not understand how anyone can begin to imply that the Canadian Government would be more interested in "protecting" Khalistani terrorists than providing justice for their own citizens. Was it a catastrophic prosecution and investigation? Yes. But to jump to malice for something that every Canadian wanted justice for is ludicrous. > Khalistan is a non-issue within India Pretty sure it's a fairly significant issue inside Punjab. Or is your implication that the rest of Hindu India doesn't consider their opinion important? If so, you've just self-explained why the Khalistan movement exists in the first place. > I have no idea how good/bad Canada's National Post is The National Post was founded by one of the 2 main inspirations for the character of Logan Roy on succession. Overall they do not lean TOO conservative (https://www.allsides.com/news-source/national-post-media-bias https://www.allsides.com/news-source/national-post-media-bia...), however these days Justin Trudeau inspires INTENSE hatred from those even mildly conservative in Canada, and they foam at the mouth to criticism him for anything, especially when it fits into their narrative of him being Too Young, Too Arrogant, and Not Respected On The International Stage.
  - yumraj 3y ago
    > Pretty sure it's a fairly significant issue inside Punjab. Or is your implication that the rest of Hindu India doesn't consider their opinion important? Do you have evidence to support that? Khalistan has been a non-issue in Punjab since the late 80s or so. There is no militancy nor is this an issue during elections or in the manifesto of any political party. Akali Dal, which is kinda Sikh religious party is not in government for last 2-3 elections and before that I believe it was in coalition with BJP, the so called Hindu-nationalist party, which is currently in power in center. Current and previous state governments are from centrist national parties. Whether or not it is discussed in hushed tones or not is something obviously I don’t know. Can it flare up again? Sure it can, and that is the hope of the Khalistanis in Canada and fear of people in India, which is why the sensitivity. May be a hyperbole, but when is comes to Khalistanis, Canada is playing with fire shattering these terrorists, many of whom have links with Punjabi organized crime and it is going to bite them hard. Sikh Gurudwaras have banners calling for assassination of Indian diplomats. I don’t know of any other civilized nation that would allow that to happen.
vjust 3y ago
The Khalistan movement found a fertile breeding ground in Canada about 40 years ago. They bombed an airline (AirIndia flight 182) in the 80s, the terrorists who plotted walk free in Canada to this day. Additionally, any Sikh , in Vancouver, who dissents with the Khalistan idea is asking for trouble - its a mafia. This tumor in Canada's politics has been allowed to fester, and now their PM is hostage because he is a minority party , one wrong move and he's out of power. Assassinations and hit jobs are common. In 1984, leaders were groomed, there were riots over Khalistan and a major political assasination of PM Indira Gandhi. I wonder what other Sikh leader is being groomed, this time in Canada - to blow up in the Canadian political scene. When the Khalistan govt. crackdown, and violent riots happened in India in 1984/85 I saw that first hand. These fugitives from India are a mix of Political aspiration (nothing wrong there), bigotry, criminal mafia, and vengeful militias that wields political power in Canada - Canada has opened its doors to trouble. Some of the grievances are no doubt legit, but there is (effectively/relatively) zero religious repression of Sikhs in India (unlike other minorities in India who have experienced problems, based on their religious views, that are covered in the media). The vast majority of Sikhs want nothing to do with these extremists. Sure they want to protect their distinct identity, and culture, a beautiful thing in itself. Obviously, the Indian govt can do much more and be more effective if it tries, within its own borders - but thats a matter of political will or games. But India has already paid the price, and been there. Canada has no clue they're dealing with a major social/political/criminal nuisance.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  An order of magnitude more Canadians died on that flight than Indians. Canada has a higher percentage of Sikh residents than India at this point. This issue isn’t exclusively Indian. The issue is that an extrajudicial, extraterritorial killing of a foreign citizen is a pretty serious step to take. There is no evidence that India tried to extradite or otherwise bring this gentleman to justice, nor what exactly his crime would be. India has accused him of a lot with not a lot of specificity. Flip this on its head: if Canada were to identify the assassins, would it be appropriate to send Canadian agents to India to have them assassinated? How would Indians react to such an act?
  - 3y ago

orwin 3y ago

I really disagree with your second point. Silence and carry on is what false accusations deserve. The issue is, I don't think Modi can afford to stay silent, whether the accusations are true or not.

yumraj 3y ago
I respect your disagreement, and in some cases perhaps yes - letting the barking dogs bark and ignoring them might be the best policy. But I feel that in the given the context, both external and internal in India, Indian government had to react rather than let silence be assumed to be an admission of guilt. That would have been worse since it frees people to draw their own conclusions. Anyway, I'm just an observer. This is a royal mess and hope it gets resolved quickly, though I doubt it.
whatisyour 3y ago
> Silence and carry on is what false accusations deserve. Only if there is a robust justice system which will protect you from the effects of false accusation. International law and a lot of countries not as developed as the west have no such systems. People in less developed nations don't have that luxury.

bsder 3y ago

If the accusations weren't true, India would just denounce it and move on. The tit for tat means that everything is real, and India is simply pissed about being called out on it. Trudeau isn't going to open his mouth on a false accusation that is just going to cause him grief.

foobiekr 3y ago
this, exactly
vjust 3y ago
Even if the accusations are true, India will not respond. To protect the lives of Indian nationals in Canada , and to protect the Indian high commission and ensure staff safety is paramount for them. Because, if I was an Indian who had the opposite opinion ( to these Khalistan people) - I’d be fearing for my safety- that’s a reflection of how much ‘rule of law’ these people will apply.Months ago these Khalistan activists vandalized the Indian consulate. The so-called Canadian rule of law seems pretty selective. This activist who was killed was an illegal immigrant and criminal fugitive, and Canada PM wants to protect his interests. It’s clearly political pressure and the rule of law might be an excuse . I’m pretty sure there’s other nations that have carried hit jobs in Canada - China , Saudi Arabia etc and we never hear about those. The leader of NDP is a Sikh and is kingmaker in Canada politics- I have a feeling Trudeau is just trying to cling to his job
yumraj 3y ago
> Trudeau isn't going to open his mouth on a false accusation that is just going to cause him grief. This has to be a joke, or naivety. Trudeau is a politician, he’s no saint. As such no stranger to lying or fabricating things, especially after a really bad G20. The timing, immediately after G20 is also rather suspect.
- bsder 3y ago
  > Trudeau is a politician, he’s no saint. As such no stranger to lying or fabricating things, This accusation IS causing him grief--right now. If Trudeau announced this, he perceives that A) announcing this gives him an advantage somehow or B) not announcing it will cause him more grief that announcing it. Now, it could be that Trudeau is a complete and utter dolt--I haven't been tracking Candian politics particularly strongly. It could also be that Modi somehow really pissed Trudeau off. However, successful politicians don't generally spout lines that can be factually refuted or that can be verfied to cause allies problems. Trumpistan is the exception, not the rule.