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> The benefit to customers was the planes were directed to where the customers were and flew to where they wanted to go. FTA: "Worse still, without mandated se

> The benefit to customers was the planes were directed to where the customers were and flew to where they wanted to go. FTA: "Worse still, without mandated service, cities and regions across the country have lost commercial air service" It sounds like planes stopped being directed to where customers were and no longer fly to where they wanted to go in many instances. This is not a win for the consumer.

twoodfin 3y ago
Planes stopped being directed where Congressmen wanted them to fly.
- autoexec 3y ago
  Congressmen who are elected to represent the will of the people and serve in their interests. I'll take that over the airlines who serve only themselves and whose only motivation is to take as much money from the public as possible.
  - vxNsr 3y ago
    Right, because famously, politicians are totally selfless and never do anything self-serving.
    - autoexec 3y ago
      When are aren't doing their job to our liking, we have the ability to remove them and replace them. Try doing that with the CEO of an airline.
      - hiatus 3y ago
        An individual has about as much power in either case. How many congress people have been removed at your bidding?
        jefftk 3y ago
        An individual has more power in the airline case: you can fly a different airline much more easily than you can move to a location with a different representative.
        boredpeter 3y ago
        Not at all, one individual won’t do anything against a business that large. And what if 1000s more people fly the airline and it becomes so wealthy it buys up all the other airlines? Corporations are authoritarian, tyrannical institutions where only the wealthy have any ability to make change. The US government may be immensely corrupt, owned by the rich, etc but at least it’s a democracy.
        nickpp 3y ago
        > And what if 1000s more people fly the airline and it becomes so wealthy it buys up all the other airlines? Then there is gonna be a gold rush of airline startups leading to amazing innovation, offers and low prices for consumers. Unless your government intervenes and regulates the market into a monopoly of incumbents, of course. > Corporations are authoritarian, tyrannical institutions Corporations are at the mercy of their consumers and investors. They get toppled every day. Remember Nokia? Motorola? IBM? Zoom? Heck even Intel lately?
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    > the will of the people is not at all the same thing as having a choice.
WalterBright 3y ago
> without mandated service, cities and regions across the country have lost commercial air service Yes, because nobody wants to run a business at a loss. > It sounds like planes stopped being directed to where customers were You're assuming the airlines are stupid. The fact that the airplanes were often nearly empty under regulation and nearly always full when unregulated is pretty strong evidence they were serving a far larger number of customers.
- autoexec 3y ago
  > Yes, because nobody wants to run a business at a loss. Which is why some important services (like the post office) shouldn't be run as businesses. > The fact that the airplanes were often nearly empty under regulation and nearly always full when unregulated is pretty strong evidence they were serving a far larger number of customers. They are serving a far larger number of customers in areas A and B while now serving zero customers in areas C D E F and G. It might be far better if fewer people in areas A and B could fly if it meant that more people in the other areas could. Airlines aren't stupid they are just doing everything they can to deliver the least to the public while charging the most they can extract from the public. Also, it isn't as if the changes airlines made to fill up seats couldn't have happened under regulation, or even that they never would have.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    If you want a similar situation, look at Amtrak - it has stops in tiny towns that may see less than fifty disembarks/embarks a year, but it's nearly impossible for them to close the station or not stop there. Many times it'd be cheaper for Amtrak to hire a car to drive the people who use that station to the next station, but they're not allowed to reduce service because those small towns complain loudly.
  - WalterBright 3y ago
    You're suggesting that it's better to serve 10 people at double the price instead of 100 people at half the price. Never mind the enormous environmental cost of this inefficiency. > they are just doing everything they can to deliver the least to the public while charging the most they can extract from the public If you are sure they are gouging and making excessive profits, buy stock in the airlines and get your share. > it isn't as if the changes airlines made to fill up seats couldn't have happened under regulation, or even that they never would have They had 40 years to fix it and never did. The airlines fixed it overnight.
callalex 3y ago
I’m replying here since the other comment is too deep. Congress very specifically, by design, does NOT represent the will of the people. It represents the will of land area. Even the part that was originally supposed to be representative of population no longer is due to shenanigans, and also over-represents land instead of people. We probably shouldn’t get into the pros and cons of this system here, but I did want to correct your fundamental misunderstanding.
- autoexec 3y ago
  The main difference is that if you don't like how congress runs something, you can vote in someone else. You can't vote out the CEO of Delta Airlines. You are powerless and should expect the airline to treat you as such
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Or you can fly United, or American, or...
    - autoexec 3y ago
      That assumes you have the option. Not all airlines fly to all locations. They love to carve up route maps and build up fortress hubs to prevent competition.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      Do they fly out of the airport I normally depart from, or any other that is within a 2 hour drive?
  - daniel-cussen 3y ago
    [dead]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - WalterBright 3y ago
bluGill 3y ago
The places that lost service were small population areas that nobody wanted to fly to/from. Places that people want to fly get service, and it is a lot cheaper as they don't have to subsidize empty flights where nobody wants to go.
nradov 3y ago
Congress still subsidizes airlines to fly to some smaller airports through the Essential Air Service program. It's not a mandate; airlines can choose whether to participate. https://www.transportation.gov/policy/aviation-policy/small-community-rural-air-service/essential-air-service https://www.transportation.gov/policy/aviation-policy/small-...

twoodfin 3y ago

Planes stopped being directed where Congressmen wanted them to fly.

autoexec 3y ago
Congressmen who are elected to represent the will of the people and serve in their interests. I'll take that over the airlines who serve only themselves and whose only motivation is to take as much money from the public as possible.
- vxNsr 3y ago
  Right, because famously, politicians are totally selfless and never do anything self-serving.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    When are aren't doing their job to our liking, we have the ability to remove them and replace them. Try doing that with the CEO of an airline.
    - hiatus 3y ago
      An individual has about as much power in either case. How many congress people have been removed at your bidding?
      - jefftk 3y ago
        An individual has more power in the airline case: you can fly a different airline much more easily than you can move to a location with a different representative.
        boredpeter 3y ago
        Not at all, one individual won’t do anything against a business that large. And what if 1000s more people fly the airline and it becomes so wealthy it buys up all the other airlines? Corporations are authoritarian, tyrannical institutions where only the wealthy have any ability to make change. The US government may be immensely corrupt, owned by the rich, etc but at least it’s a democracy.
        nickpp 3y ago
        > And what if 1000s more people fly the airline and it becomes so wealthy it buys up all the other airlines? Then there is gonna be a gold rush of airline startups leading to amazing innovation, offers and low prices for consumers. Unless your government intervenes and regulates the market into a monopoly of incumbents, of course. > Corporations are authoritarian, tyrannical institutions Corporations are at the mercy of their consumers and investors. They get toppled every day. Remember Nokia? Motorola? IBM? Zoom? Heck even Intel lately?
- WalterBright 3y ago
  > the will of the people is not at all the same thing as having a choice.

WalterBright 3y ago

> without mandated service, cities and regions across the country have lost commercial air service Yes, because nobody wants to run a business at a loss. > It sounds like planes stopped being directed to where customers were You're assuming the airlines are stupid. The fact that the airplanes were often nearly empty under regulation and nearly always full when unregulated is pretty strong evidence they were serving a far larger number of customers.

autoexec 3y ago
> Yes, because nobody wants to run a business at a loss. Which is why some important services (like the post office) shouldn't be run as businesses. > The fact that the airplanes were often nearly empty under regulation and nearly always full when unregulated is pretty strong evidence they were serving a far larger number of customers. They are serving a far larger number of customers in areas A and B while now serving zero customers in areas C D E F and G. It might be far better if fewer people in areas A and B could fly if it meant that more people in the other areas could. Airlines aren't stupid they are just doing everything they can to deliver the least to the public while charging the most they can extract from the public. Also, it isn't as if the changes airlines made to fill up seats couldn't have happened under regulation, or even that they never would have.
- bombcar 3y ago
  If you want a similar situation, look at Amtrak - it has stops in tiny towns that may see less than fifty disembarks/embarks a year, but it's nearly impossible for them to close the station or not stop there. Many times it'd be cheaper for Amtrak to hire a car to drive the people who use that station to the next station, but they're not allowed to reduce service because those small towns complain loudly.
- WalterBright 3y ago
  You're suggesting that it's better to serve 10 people at double the price instead of 100 people at half the price. Never mind the enormous environmental cost of this inefficiency. > they are just doing everything they can to deliver the least to the public while charging the most they can extract from the public If you are sure they are gouging and making excessive profits, buy stock in the airlines and get your share. > it isn't as if the changes airlines made to fill up seats couldn't have happened under regulation, or even that they never would have They had 40 years to fix it and never did. The airlines fixed it overnight.

callalex 3y ago

I’m replying here since the other comment is too deep. Congress very specifically, by design, does NOT represent the will of the people. It represents the will of land area. Even the part that was originally supposed to be representative of population no longer is due to shenanigans, and also over-represents land instead of people. We probably shouldn’t get into the pros and cons of this system here, but I did want to correct your fundamental misunderstanding.

autoexec 3y ago
The main difference is that if you don't like how congress runs something, you can vote in someone else. You can't vote out the CEO of Delta Airlines. You are powerless and should expect the airline to treat you as such
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Or you can fly United, or American, or...
  - autoexec 3y ago
    That assumes you have the option. Not all airlines fly to all locations. They love to carve up route maps and build up fortress hubs to prevent competition.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Do they fly out of the airport I normally depart from, or any other that is within a 2 hour drive?
- daniel-cussen 3y ago
  [dead]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- WalterBright 3y ago

bluGill 3y ago

The places that lost service were small population areas that nobody wanted to fly to/from. Places that people want to fly get service, and it is a lot cheaper as they don't have to subsidize empty flights where nobody wants to go.

nradov 3y ago

Congress still subsidizes airlines to fly to some smaller airports through the Essential Air Service program. It's not a mandate; airlines can choose whether to participate. https://www.transportation.gov/policy/aviation-policy/small-community-rural-air-service/essential-air-service https://www.transportation.gov/policy/aviation-policy/small-...