10 ms·

USPS In-Person Identity Proofing

176 points by rawgabbit 3y ago

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Recently had to perform this for a dependent family member due to online identity proofing failure when attempting to setup mail forwarding online. Super simple process. USPS provided a barcode via email, you can print or display on device. USPS staff scans barcode, requests identity documents, performs proofing, and upon approval, the exception flow completes and whatever action you requested proceeds. In and out in 5 minutes. https://www.login.gov/help/verify-your-identity/verify-your-identity-in-person/ https://www.login.gov/help/verify-your-identity/verify-your-... Really excited as this rolls out fully for Login.gov high IAL (identity assurance level) use cases (ie IRS logins). If someone from Login.gov can comment on why state IDs are accepted, but not US passports and other federal identity credentials, I would be interested! (tangentially, behold, your government and two exceptional public goods [Login.gov and USPS] working for you efficiently and in public)
- mistrial9 3y ago
  sure all that is great - but terrible side effect of the USA system is that every person must run through some gauntlet of ID systems.. two generations ago, some tax professionals and some government employees had to have super-rigorous profiles on file.. and the person agreed to that when they pursue that profession.. the dystopian parts come with the 75-year old widow with dementia or college student aka slacker has to adhere to similar standards to be basically functional.. there needs to be some middle ground, say some
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Functioning identity systems are a component of a functioning government. I agree there should be very robust exception handling mechanisms to get folks on rails who fall off. Someone being able to prove they are who they say they are is only dystopian to a vocal minority. If you don't want to drive, don't want to buy alcohol, don't want to travel internationally, etc, certainly, you can go without a state issued ID or driver's license, or a US passport. That is a choice. You're still going to need to prove who you are to rent formally, transact in real estate (buy a home with or without a mortgage), apply for state of federal benefits, obtain non emergency healthcare, etc.
    - kccqzy 3y ago
      Traditionally speaking, the United States did not agree with that. People argued against a national identity system, and even when SSNs first appeared it was stipulated that they not be used for identity. That said I personally agree with you.
    - mistrial9 3y ago
      > Someone being able to prove they are who they say they are is only dystopian it is intellectually dishonest, or motivated reasoning as they say, to imply that I said anything to the contrary. Perhaps you can reconsider that assessment of the comment ?
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        > the dystopian parts come with the 75-year old widow with dementia or college student aka slacker has to adhere to similar standards to be basically functional.. there needs to be some middle ground, say some Did I read this wrong? It sounded like you were insinuating that these use cases shouldn't required strong identity assurance. If that is not what you meant, I apologize for reading the statement incorrectly. If identity credentials are provided at low or no cost to prevent marginalization or disenfranchisement, I see no issue. Those credentials are then leveraged for all other systems that require identity proofing. That widow will need to prove who they are for social security benefits, medicare, or to receive an estate from a deceased partner (including removing them from their home's deed if held together, or accepting retirement accounts as a beneficiary). That college student will need to prove who they are for government funding aid, student loans, and to enroll. Disenfranchisement is very real, but so is identity fraud. People who want strong privacy and governance around identity aren't wrong, they are simply solving at the wrong OSI layer by saying the technical implementation of identity systems shouldn't be good. Fix tech problems with tech, fix people problems with people.
        salawat 3y ago
        >Fix tech problems with tech, fix people problems with people. If you've been in the industry for any significant amount of time (over a decade), you'd know that the way things work out is A) Solve all problems (including people problems) with tech. B) Create new problems as a result. C) Goto A D) As loopcount of A-C increases, the familiarity with how to solve people problems successfully and fully with people starts to wane. E) Crappy people problem solving systems technically solved require and equip newer generations with survival skills to navigate the flawed technical solution, but not with the flexibility or experience to thrive in an environment without said systems or imagine an alternative process. F) The world begins to look more and more insane and delocalized over time to new entrants, who now have to cope with the fact that biology equipped us to handle local state management, but increasingly, remote state management is becoming a required survival skill. G) Human beings do not have network cards integrated into their biology. (Thank god.) H) Duct taping on the technical solution to G) just makes the original problem we're trying to solve even harder. I) Somewhere in here is a Paxos joke. I'll even offer the example of blockchains and cryptocurrencies as an example of this flow. Our financial system pre-2000's was heavily "Oh, this is a people problem", with heavy employment of "develop a human relationship to get things done." Post 00's, with things like AML/KYC, our institutions are skewing such that the digital metadata (and not the relationship between persons) is the kernel for getting things. This makes identity fraud easier, because now instead of your bank people getting to know everybody, it's "computer says yes/no". Enter cryptocurrencies (the penultimate technical solution, no human involved, just shluffing bits between private keys). Nobody knows anyone anymore. Nobody wants to. The reversal and fatfinger problem still exists and is even worse over those mediums. Now we also have new problems from everyone wanting to take all this financial activity and make it public. Making the original ID/Trust problem even worse. Now everyone is required to understand network theory and distributed systems to be able to hew out a local truth state, but maximally ill equipped to do the actual hewing, because the skills that got you that truth state in the first place were social, which we've done everything possible to technically engineer away. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
  - renlo 3y ago
    > the dystopian parts come with the 75-year old widow with dementia [...] has to adhere to similar standards I don't mean to strawman, but, isn't this all to prevent the 75-year old widow from losing her retirement savings by scammers? Don't let perfect be the enemy of good, sure there are issues, but there needs to be something.
    - mistrial9 3y ago
      this is a great point and absolutely a real problem.. the specific person I was thinking of, is getting phone calls daily on her new iPhone from strangers.. In the past, a licensed professional of some kind would be an intermediary over a committed period of time..
  - wayfinder 3y ago
    Pretty sure this is by design, not by a side effect. National ID systems are not super popular. Inefficiency is strangely sometimes the only reliable way to prevent consolidation of power.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      >> National ID systems are not super popular. In the US maybe. Every other developed country has them, one way or the other.
- Ridj48dhsnsh 3y ago
  So how would that work if the IRS requires ID verification for my taxes and I live on the other side of the world, usually visiting the US every 2-3 years?
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Remote identity proofing, either automated to confirm liveness or with a video call. Takes about 3-5 minutes in my experience. https://help.id.me/hc/en-us/articles/8214940302999-Internal-Revenue-Service-and-ID-me https://help.id.me/hc/en-us/articles/8214940302999-Internal-... You bring up an interesting edge case though. I will reach out to my State Dept folks to ask about supporting Login.gov identity proofing IRL at embassies and consulates for expats.
  - kylehotchkiss 3y ago
    Embassies are supposed to be helpful for this matter. I spent a few years abroad and needed to file ITIN paperwork for spouse and we went in together to get a certified photocopy of their passport for about $50. The IRS accepted this as binding as an American document. That said, the IRS doesn't really want you on their sites if you don't have a US address. I struggled to get transcripts on the site (but they allow you to submit written requests for them). This is a reasonable thing for the IRS to implement given the significant interest in fraud from their systems from people overseas.
    - taway_6PplYu5 3y ago
      >the IRS doesn't really want you on their sites if you don't have a US address. ... This is a reasonable thing for the IRS to implement given the significant interest in fraud from their systems from people overseas. Except that US tax law also requires that all US persons, worldwide, to file US tax returns (note: this is a superset of US citizens). So if the law applies to expats and to anyone who has ever applied for a green card even if denied or not used or not revoked, then the system needs to support worldwide access.
      - kylehotchkiss 3y ago
- donmcronald 3y ago
  > USPS staff scans barcode, requests identity documents, performs proofing, and upon approval, the exception flow completes and whatever action you requested proceeds. In and out in 5 minutes. This is how code signing certificates should work. Better yet, let them be issued with a simple OAuth flow through sites like login.gov where people have already been verified. The current system is the worst of everything. It's a convoluted process with geographically and culturally disconnected people doing verification for (primarily) businesses that don't even need to be tied back to a natural person or beneficial owner. To top it off, it's ridiculously expensive for an individual or open source project. Microsoft also plays a huge role in propping up the currently broken system by trusting EV certificates more than personal certificates even though the identity of a natural person is far more valuable than the identity of a shell company that can easily be used by bad actors. In one way I dislike identity verification systems like this because I think it's going to increasingly disadvantage people that are already less fortunate, but in another way I hope that it can be used to improve some of the terrible processes we have to endure when it comes to identity and trust.
  - KennyBlanken 3y ago
    The reason cert and signing costs are expensive is to discourage random people from signing up for accounts they don't need, or uploading useless apps. This sort of "price people out of being annoying or doing things they don't remotely need" technique is extremely common in society. EV certs involve a pretty lengthy number of checks, by the way. Having a PO box isn't enough.
    - donmcronald 3y ago
      I don't have a huge issue with the expense, but I don't think it should be a requirement. I think it should be more of an upgrade. For example, let me get a personal code signing certificate for $50 per year and then treat an organizational cert as an upgrade where I pay $500 to have my business name on the cert. I could even see a case for having $5000+ high value certificates. The problem with that is the way companies like Microsoft handle them. Instead of telling the user "this is a low value cert", they put up a massive warning telling the user their computer is going to melt down if they trust it. It makes the decision of whether or not to run something binary and it's not. I think a system where I could sign things as trivial as PowerShell scripts would be better than what we have now. Anyone I give something like that to is going to know me personally and can easily judge the trustworthiness of what they're running by seeing my name. > This sort of "price people out of being annoying or doing things they don't remotely need" technique is extremely common in society. From what I see, it makes things difficult for someone trying to provide fair value and favors anyone willing to price gouge their customers. Even worse, criminal activity is extremely high margin and industrial scale bad actors have no problem paying for things like EV code signing certificates. > EV certs involve a pretty lengthy number of checks, by the way. Having a PO box isn't enough. And, based on my experience, it's all a big clown show. The people doing the verification are at a huge informational disadvantage because (I'm assuming) they're in a processing somewhere with minimal training and are expected to verify identities for every jurisdiction in the world. It's like me trying to verify the identity of someone in China. No matter how much training you give me, I'm probably never going to be as good at it as a local would be. The whole system could be better. I would prefer to see something where everything starts with a personal code signing certificate for a natural person and where getting an EV certificate requires an attestation from someone with a personal certificate. My identity is more valuable than a shell company. There's no incentive for anyone to fix it either. The platform owners benefit immensely if people abandon a standardized code signing system in favor of the signing certificates they issue for their app stores. IMO that's half the reason Microsoft abused their market position to kill AppGet. Anything that improves competition for app distribution isn't going to be allowed.
- t3rabytes 3y ago
  > In and out in 5 minutes. Most of my USPS experiences are great once I actually get to the desk, but it might take 45-60 minutes of standing in line before I actually get there.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    So, there's a great government (+) agency clearly capable of providing you with excellent service, but chronically understaffed. I wonder why that is? (+) yes, yes, we all know that the "government" part of USPS is a bit strange, albeit not as strange as Amtrak.
    - pests 3y ago
      I always thought the USPS would be the perfect agency for more public outreach and goverment-citizen interaction. It sounds weird when its stated, but they are the only government entity that sends an employee to your house 6 times a week. It could quickly turn distopian but I could imagine the mailman becoming your single stop for interacting with the government and its services.
  - DANmode 3y ago
    At what time of day?
- kylehotchkiss 3y ago
  > state IDs are accepted, but not US passports and other federal identity credentials Federal documents don't have authenticated addresses. The view seems to be that only state agencies are capable of verifying you actually live at the address on your ID (See Real ID for more context).
  - techsupporter 3y ago
    > Federal documents don't have authenticated addresses. I wonder why that matters. If I am provably who I say I am, why is the address important? Also, not specifically for you, but generally what about states that don't reissue IDs when someone moves? (I suppose their answer to that is "get an updated ID and try again".)
    - abirch 3y ago
      Michael B. Jordan could try to be Michael Jordan. There are many popular names out there. Heck I'd change my name to Bill Gates.
      - CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
        "try" isn't even needed. Example: Two people, living at the same address, whose names differ only in the middle initial. One person moves, submitting the change-of-address form. They then start to get some (or all) of the mail for the other person.
        Mountain_Skies 3y ago
        Four generations of men in my family have the same name other than suffix. At times three of them lived at the same address. It has caused a number of issues over the years, including unintended cross access to bank accounts. Despite the problems it sometimes creates, they seem to be amused by the confusion.
    - simcop2387 3y ago
      For mail forwarding at least, there could be two John Smiths and requesting forwarding for the wrong one would let someone steal mail easily.
- tshaddox 3y ago
  I'm glad you had a good experience. I recently had a terrible experience with what should have been an even simpler verification process. My wife and I ended up moving (within California) on short notice that overlapped my wife's unrelated trip out of the country. Despite very clear documentation on the USPS website about the documentation required for me to verify my wife's identity (and my relationship to her) in order to complete a Change of Address order on her behalf, the USPS employee immediately and aggressively accused me of attempting identity theft. No amount of showing him the USPS documentation about how to verify a spouse's identity would convince him. At the second USPS office I tried, the guy was very nice, but also said that due to a high rate of identity theft they are refusing to do anything without the person there. Luckily we only had a short interval where mail wasn't being forwarded before my wife returned and verified her identity in person, and probably didn't miss any important mail.
  - dv_dt 3y ago
    I have always filled out change of address online with no issues. But I suppose it’s been 5-6 years since I last did this.
    - tshaddox 3y ago
      When you do it online they have some sort of risk estimation thing where you provide (if I remember correctly) a credit card and a phone number. When I completed mine online, it said I was instantly verified, but for my wife it said additional in-person verification was required. I suspect it's because she changed her name when we got married and whatever online identity service they use has a combination of her old and new names.
    - bee_rider 3y ago
      Their system is quite picky about address formatting (they ask to do a small transaction; you billing address better match the address USPS has for you exactly, stuff like RD vs road matters). I ended up changing my billing address in my bank to exactly match what USPS wanted. Which worked, and was fine, but did leave me wondering what would prevent someone else from doing that with their own bank account if they wanted to change my address for some weird reason.
- toss1 3y ago
  Does this work for a family member who cannot physically present themselves at a Post Office, e.g., due to illness or incapacity? (looks like this is what you are reporting, but the phrasing is a bit ambiguous on that detail - thanks!)
  - CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
    The USPS in-person method is an exceptional flow; it's only used if other options are unavailable. If someone is ill, then you should use the remote options that are already available for ID verification. ID.me has tip for friends & family that are helping with this: https://help.id.me/hc/en-us/articles/4589202735639-Helping-friends-or-family-members-verify-their-identity-using-ID-me https://help.id.me/hc/en-us/articles/4589202735639-Helping-f... If a person is ill, and the normal (remote) methods don't work, my suggestion would be to reach out to the Postmaster for your local area (if you have multiple post offices in your area, there may be one Postmaster for all of them). Meet them in person and explain the situation. Before you reach out, get documentation from a local doctor to back up your case. Ask what options are available. If someone is incapacitated, then identity verification is not going to work, but that's the point: If you don't currently have the capacity to participate in transactions, that responsibility falls to someone else (spouse, next of kin, power of attorney, court-appointed person), etc..
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  ID.me was hot garbage for a long time. Scanned my Driver's License at 200dpi. "Unable to find a face in the image you uploaded." Okay, 300dpi. "Unable to find a face in the image you uploaded." Huh. Scan at 72dpi. Success. Scan back of DL at 72dpi. "Unable to read barcode." Scan back of DL at 200dpi. "Unable to read barcode." Scan at 300dpi. Success. What a shitshow.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
    Is ID.me service still run by some questionable third party company and not the actual government?
    - onetokeoverthe 3y ago
      [dead]
belltaco 3y ago
Maybe Google can pay for this to restore access to Gmail even if for a fee.
- fatfingerd 3y ago
  For some postal employees easy access to credit card mailings is irresistible and they get prosecuted for credit card fraud.. The specifics of what they record in a verification is a bit vague and I would be concerned that some would sell celebrity accounts, or a way to get into an account used for private financial access, etc, even if the access to identity with other government agencies is theoretically a bigger pot.
macinjosh 3y ago
Is it OK to force folks to go to the Post Office to verify their government issued ID, in order to say receive benefits or pay a tax or fee? It is exclusionary to verify ID when voting, so what is the difference here?
- devmor 3y ago
  It's not a forced method, its an option. In my experience setting up my own Login.gov account, and helping family members with theirs, the online methods have frequent and frustrating technical difficulties. This option may be preferable than spending an hour or two trying to get the Login.gov mobile website to actually use your device's camera.
  - Ridj48dhsnsh 3y ago
    If their tech decides it doesn't like my de-googled phone, then it becomes no longer optional.
    - shelbel 3y ago
      Can you say more? Like describe what your experience with it was
      - Ridj48dhsnsh 3y ago
        I haven't actually used the system in question; I'm just speculating based on my frustration with the increasing number of banking, trading, and even taxi booking apps that will refuse to work on modified phones.
        devmor 3y ago
        For me, it wasn’t even a modified phone. It was just a bog standard iPhone 14 Pro.
- redavni 3y ago
  Outside of California, excluding criminals from defrauding the government is viewed as a good thing.
jdblair 3y ago
This is way better than the "20 questions" identity verification that works by asking you multiple-choice questions about your credit report. I have about a 80% success rate with those.
Animats 3y ago
What, no biometrics?
- kylehotchkiss 3y ago
  There is no federal database to verify biometrics against. The state ones are not shared federally. How could a post office implement that?
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    If the person seeking proofing is enrolled in Global Entry or PreCheck, the USPS could support automated facial recognition proofing at USPS kiosks, as CBP maintains facial biometrics for trusted traveler programs. Can USPS kiosks run a sandboxed app to do this? Can you trust the data connection between the kiosk and federal agency systems with such sensitive data? Great questions. Definitely a stretch goal considering resourcing, inter agency partnership challenges, and uptake of trusted traveler programs across the general populace, but not technically infeasible. TSA is already testing automated credential proofing terminals at airport checkpoints, for example, and CBP Global Entry terminals for international arrivals are already automated kiosks. https://uspsblog.com/usps-self-service-kiosk/ https://uspsblog.com/usps-self-service-kiosk/ https://www.cbp.gov/travel/biometrics https://www.cbp.gov/travel/biometrics https://thepointsguy.com/news/global-entry-facial-recognition/ https://thepointsguy.com/news/global-entry-facial-recognitio... https://thepointsguy.com/news/tsa-facial-recognition-software/ https://thepointsguy.com/news/tsa-facial-recognition-softwar... (you probably don't need this if you have global entry, but fun thought experiment considering data sources and technology implementation feasibility; maybe upgrade someones IAL automatically at Login.gov when they're doing their Global Entry or PreCheck interviews at CBP?)
    - kylehotchkiss 3y ago
      Trusted traveler programs have pretty wide latitude for removing members (for example, for something as small as not declaring a banana in your bag or bringing a spouse without global entry into that lane) and aren’t setup for use as identity verification. Plus it’d be a very small percentage of Americans - remember only around 55% have a passport. The amount with global entry will be a small percentage of that.
lxgr 3y ago
This used to be what everybody in Germany had to do to open a bank account or request a new credit card, until the alternative of KYC by video call became popular. It's not efficient by any means, but in my view it beats the US practice treating an SSN as a password, together with bizarre "security questions" sourced from public records that some banks use as a "verification method". And no, "phone number verification" (that really only works for phone numbers with the big three mobile carriers) should also never have been a thing. I really, really hope to see a usable-by-everyone identification method one day, as opposed to "usable by enough", with a sizable fraction of the population just being denied access to credit, banking, and more, just because they don't exist in the expected form in some creepy data miner's database. Ironically, German ID cards support exactly such a method: You can just tap it on your iOS or Android phone for a "qualified electronic signature" as defined by EU law. And as a non-citizen, you can now finally get an "e-ID only" card, so nobody is excluded from that scheme! Unfortunately, I don't know a single person that remembers their six-digit PIN that's required for that feature...
- cesarb 3y ago
  > Unfortunately, I don't know a single person that remembers their six-digit PIN that's required for that feature... IIRC, enabling that feature is optional (disabled by default), and if you never enabled it, you don't even have that six-digit PIN.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    As far as I know, it's now mandatory, i.e. you'll receive a random PIN in the mail after requesting a new ID card whether you want to use it or not.
- overlordalex 3y ago
  That's if you even got a pin in the first place! I discovered this recently when I wanted to use the gloriously named AusweisApp2 (ID app 2, superseding a PC app which was at least forward thinking enough to be called ID app 1). In theory it's simple to request a new pin - you can even do it within the app! However I've moved since I acquired the card, and so instead of the reset mails going to my registered address, I can only assume they went to the address stored on the card. And in a catch-22 of course you can only update that with a pin... But no worries, you can simply book an appointment at your nearest buergeramt to have a pin reset in person; except there are no free slots in the next 3 months.. anywhere! I needed documents for a new visa, which should give me a new card (and hopefully a new pin!), which ultimately turned out to be faster to do than trying to sort out the damn pin
atonse 3y ago
I'm a huge fan of login.gov – It's just really nicely implemented, simple to use, accessible, and I love their reuse of well thought out ideas in the Federal Government of IALs (Identity Assurance Levels). I hope this system expands further, and even that local governments also start to use it.
- homero 3y ago
  Odd the IRS won't use it
  - YeBanKo 3y ago
    Someone in IRS IT procurement department is aiming for a nice position in the private industry.
keyme 3y ago
It's almost as if you could use something like that for voting...
bagels 3y ago
USPS doesn't even know the difference between Australia and Curaçao, good luck.
- CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
  Uh, could you please provide some background for your statement?
SoftTalker 3y ago
Shouldn't the service be called "Identity Proving" ? "Identity Proofing" makes it sound like something that prevents you from being identified.
- mttjj 3y ago
  It sounds right to me. I think definitions 1 and 3 of the noun form of the word apply here. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proof https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proof
supernova87a 3y ago
They should expand this service to make the USPS some profit, and offer to banks, credit cards, real estate, city/state governments, etc. to combat the rising (maybe perceived, but certainly lots of real) problems with proving someone's real identity and fraud. The virtual world has opened up new channels for fraud and it seems government is just way behind on this. Almost to the level that some institutional trust is starting to break down (not to be too exaggerated about it though). (see pandemic relief funds)
- ibejoeb 3y ago
  Why would I pay to interface with the government?
  - late25 3y ago
    I’d pay to make sure others can’t in my name.
  - sagarm 3y ago
    Many US government services already involve fees.
Simulacra 3y ago
This would be useful for mailing ballots.
foogazi 3y ago
This is great example of the USPS as the federal government store front. They already handle passport appointments. I’d like to see options for the unhoused and unbanked: Homeless people get ID verified, get virtual mail access: all mail scanned and available online, physical mail at closest zip Low income unbanked get access to free banking options
- supernova87a 3y ago
  The stupid thing is that (I understand) the USPS is prohibited by law from offering such services. Go figure.
  - CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
    Source?
    - supernova87a 3y ago
      https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-20-354#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20USPS%20is%20prohibited,by%20the%20Postal%20Regulatory%20Commission https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-20-354#:~:text=In%20general....
      - foogazi 3y ago
        > unless approved by the Postal Regulatory Commission All laws can be changed
        supernova87a 3y ago
        https://www.theonion.com/congress-forgets-how-to-pass-a-law-1819594959 https://www.theonion.com/congress-forgets-how-to-pass-a-law-...
  - lxgr 3y ago
    That's truly ironic – in Europe, the giro/wire transfer system has its roots in the postal service in many countries! In the US, a similar thing happened for American Express and Western Union, which also started out as postal and telegraph service providers before they became financial service providers.
ineptech 3y ago
Very cool, I hope this gets widespread enough to become the default way to prove identity online. I know a lot of people are very concerned about preserving the right to be anonymous, but it should be equally concerning that it's difficult to not be anonymous without involving a giant corporation. Would it be too much to ask for a Keybase style app on top of this? One can hope...
- AdamJacobMuller 3y ago
  That was my first thought with too. I hope it doesn't become the default for most sites (which have no need for your actual identity) but for many use cases I can see the need for varying levels of identity tied to your real identity. Minimally, login.gov could issue a (globally) unique token which they will only issue one per user per site, which would effectively allow the site to enforce a 1:1 human:account ratio (or at least know which accounts are linked to which humans) without disclosing any actual details of the human.
  - tzs 3y ago
    > I hope it doesn't become the default for most sites (which have no need for your actual identity) but for many use cases I can see the need for varying levels of identity tied to your real identity Varying levels is probably the right approach. For most sites all they need to know when I create an account is that I control the email address that I am using to sign up. If I ever again need to prove my identity to them proving that I receive email at that address is good enough. For the site that provides my email address they need something other than email to identify me. If I'm using an email provider that lets you bring your own domain, they could use proof that I control the DNS for that domain as proof of identity. How to prove identity to my domain registrar? I could use an email address that is not hosted somewhere that depends on my proof of domain ownership, like gmail or my ISP, but that is probably not a good idea. Ultimately, my ability to prove my identity at most sites would depend on proving identity to my domain registrar (or to my email host if I don't have my own domain), and so making that depend on remaining in good standing with Google might not be wise. What we need for proving identity to a domain register (or an email provider if you don't have your own domain) is something that we can be sure we can rely on, because in the worst case when you've been massively hacked and your identity has been stolen at multiple sites and services that is going to be the identity proof you count on to let you recover everything else. For that something like the USPS identity service would be great.
User23 3y ago
The Post Office is definitely the most pleasant interaction most Americans will ever have with a federal agent. Although I will tell you, don't ever eff with a postal inspector. Those people have police powers that could make a game warden salivate.
YeBanKo 3y ago
This is how it should be done for mission critical stuff. We already invest in USPS infrastructure, this is a good use for it. I don’t want another id.me to use a gov service.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nlawalker 3y ago
Somewhat related: you can request your US federal-level rap sheet (“Identity History Summary”) from the FBI for a small fee, commonly done as part of an application process for a long-term visa abroad. If you use their online form to request it, they’ll give you a barcode you can take to a participating post office, where they will collect your fingerprints digitally. https://www.fbi.gov/how-we-can-help-you/more-fbi-services-and-information/identity-history-summary-checks#Online https://www.fbi.gov/how-we-can-help-you/more-fbi-services-an...
homero 3y ago
Why doesn't the IRS use Login.gov

176 points by rawgabbit 3y ago

Recently had to perform this for a dependent family member due to online identity proofing failure when attempting to setup mail forwarding online. Super simple process. USPS provided a barcode via email, you can print or display on device. USPS staff scans barcode, requests identity documents, performs proofing, and upon approval, the exception flow completes and whatever action you requested proceeds. In and out in 5 minutes. https://www.login.gov/help/verify-your-identity/verify-your-identity-in-person/ https://www.login.gov/help/verify-your-identity/verify-your-... Really excited as this rolls out fully for Login.gov high IAL (identity assurance level) use cases (ie IRS logins). If someone from Login.gov can comment on why state IDs are accepted, but not US passports and other federal identity credentials, I would be interested! (tangentially, behold, your government and two exceptional public goods [Login.gov and USPS] working for you efficiently and in public)

mistrial9 3y ago
sure all that is great - but terrible side effect of the USA system is that every person must run through some gauntlet of ID systems.. two generations ago, some tax professionals and some government employees had to have super-rigorous profiles on file.. and the person agreed to that when they pursue that profession.. the dystopian parts come with the 75-year old widow with dementia or college student aka slacker has to adhere to similar standards to be basically functional.. there needs to be some middle ground, say some
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Functioning identity systems are a component of a functioning government. I agree there should be very robust exception handling mechanisms to get folks on rails who fall off. Someone being able to prove they are who they say they are is only dystopian to a vocal minority. If you don't want to drive, don't want to buy alcohol, don't want to travel internationally, etc, certainly, you can go without a state issued ID or driver's license, or a US passport. That is a choice. You're still going to need to prove who you are to rent formally, transact in real estate (buy a home with or without a mortgage), apply for state of federal benefits, obtain non emergency healthcare, etc.
  - kccqzy 3y ago
    Traditionally speaking, the United States did not agree with that. People argued against a national identity system, and even when SSNs first appeared it was stipulated that they not be used for identity. That said I personally agree with you.
  - mistrial9 3y ago
    > Someone being able to prove they are who they say they are is only dystopian it is intellectually dishonest, or motivated reasoning as they say, to imply that I said anything to the contrary. Perhaps you can reconsider that assessment of the comment ?
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      > the dystopian parts come with the 75-year old widow with dementia or college student aka slacker has to adhere to similar standards to be basically functional.. there needs to be some middle ground, say some Did I read this wrong? It sounded like you were insinuating that these use cases shouldn't required strong identity assurance. If that is not what you meant, I apologize for reading the statement incorrectly. If identity credentials are provided at low or no cost to prevent marginalization or disenfranchisement, I see no issue. Those credentials are then leveraged for all other systems that require identity proofing. That widow will need to prove who they are for social security benefits, medicare, or to receive an estate from a deceased partner (including removing them from their home's deed if held together, or accepting retirement accounts as a beneficiary). That college student will need to prove who they are for government funding aid, student loans, and to enroll. Disenfranchisement is very real, but so is identity fraud. People who want strong privacy and governance around identity aren't wrong, they are simply solving at the wrong OSI layer by saying the technical implementation of identity systems shouldn't be good. Fix tech problems with tech, fix people problems with people.
      - salawat 3y ago
        >Fix tech problems with tech, fix people problems with people. If you've been in the industry for any significant amount of time (over a decade), you'd know that the way things work out is A) Solve all problems (including people problems) with tech. B) Create new problems as a result. C) Goto A D) As loopcount of A-C increases, the familiarity with how to solve people problems successfully and fully with people starts to wane. E) Crappy people problem solving systems technically solved require and equip newer generations with survival skills to navigate the flawed technical solution, but not with the flexibility or experience to thrive in an environment without said systems or imagine an alternative process. F) The world begins to look more and more insane and delocalized over time to new entrants, who now have to cope with the fact that biology equipped us to handle local state management, but increasingly, remote state management is becoming a required survival skill. G) Human beings do not have network cards integrated into their biology. (Thank god.) H) Duct taping on the technical solution to G) just makes the original problem we're trying to solve even harder. I) Somewhere in here is a Paxos joke. I'll even offer the example of blockchains and cryptocurrencies as an example of this flow. Our financial system pre-2000's was heavily "Oh, this is a people problem", with heavy employment of "develop a human relationship to get things done." Post 00's, with things like AML/KYC, our institutions are skewing such that the digital metadata (and not the relationship between persons) is the kernel for getting things. This makes identity fraud easier, because now instead of your bank people getting to know everybody, it's "computer says yes/no". Enter cryptocurrencies (the penultimate technical solution, no human involved, just shluffing bits between private keys). Nobody knows anyone anymore. Nobody wants to. The reversal and fatfinger problem still exists and is even worse over those mediums. Now we also have new problems from everyone wanting to take all this financial activity and make it public. Making the original ID/Trust problem even worse. Now everyone is required to understand network theory and distributed systems to be able to hew out a local truth state, but maximally ill equipped to do the actual hewing, because the skills that got you that truth state in the first place were social, which we've done everything possible to technically engineer away. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
- renlo 3y ago
  > the dystopian parts come with the 75-year old widow with dementia [...] has to adhere to similar standards I don't mean to strawman, but, isn't this all to prevent the 75-year old widow from losing her retirement savings by scammers? Don't let perfect be the enemy of good, sure there are issues, but there needs to be something.
  - mistrial9 3y ago
    this is a great point and absolutely a real problem.. the specific person I was thinking of, is getting phone calls daily on her new iPhone from strangers.. In the past, a licensed professional of some kind would be an intermediary over a committed period of time..
- wayfinder 3y ago
  Pretty sure this is by design, not by a side effect. National ID systems are not super popular. Inefficiency is strangely sometimes the only reliable way to prevent consolidation of power.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    >> National ID systems are not super popular. In the US maybe. Every other developed country has them, one way or the other.
Ridj48dhsnsh 3y ago
So how would that work if the IRS requires ID verification for my taxes and I live on the other side of the world, usually visiting the US every 2-3 years?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Remote identity proofing, either automated to confirm liveness or with a video call. Takes about 3-5 minutes in my experience. https://help.id.me/hc/en-us/articles/8214940302999-Internal-Revenue-Service-and-ID-me https://help.id.me/hc/en-us/articles/8214940302999-Internal-... You bring up an interesting edge case though. I will reach out to my State Dept folks to ask about supporting Login.gov identity proofing IRL at embassies and consulates for expats.
- kylehotchkiss 3y ago
  Embassies are supposed to be helpful for this matter. I spent a few years abroad and needed to file ITIN paperwork for spouse and we went in together to get a certified photocopy of their passport for about $50. The IRS accepted this as binding as an American document. That said, the IRS doesn't really want you on their sites if you don't have a US address. I struggled to get transcripts on the site (but they allow you to submit written requests for them). This is a reasonable thing for the IRS to implement given the significant interest in fraud from their systems from people overseas.
  - taway_6PplYu5 3y ago
    >the IRS doesn't really want you on their sites if you don't have a US address. ... This is a reasonable thing for the IRS to implement given the significant interest in fraud from their systems from people overseas. Except that US tax law also requires that all US persons, worldwide, to file US tax returns (note: this is a superset of US citizens). So if the law applies to expats and to anyone who has ever applied for a green card even if denied or not used or not revoked, then the system needs to support worldwide access.
    - kylehotchkiss 3y ago
donmcronald 3y ago
> USPS staff scans barcode, requests identity documents, performs proofing, and upon approval, the exception flow completes and whatever action you requested proceeds. In and out in 5 minutes. This is how code signing certificates should work. Better yet, let them be issued with a simple OAuth flow through sites like login.gov where people have already been verified. The current system is the worst of everything. It's a convoluted process with geographically and culturally disconnected people doing verification for (primarily) businesses that don't even need to be tied back to a natural person or beneficial owner. To top it off, it's ridiculously expensive for an individual or open source project. Microsoft also plays a huge role in propping up the currently broken system by trusting EV certificates more than personal certificates even though the identity of a natural person is far more valuable than the identity of a shell company that can easily be used by bad actors. In one way I dislike identity verification systems like this because I think it's going to increasingly disadvantage people that are already less fortunate, but in another way I hope that it can be used to improve some of the terrible processes we have to endure when it comes to identity and trust.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  The reason cert and signing costs are expensive is to discourage random people from signing up for accounts they don't need, or uploading useless apps. This sort of "price people out of being annoying or doing things they don't remotely need" technique is extremely common in society. EV certs involve a pretty lengthy number of checks, by the way. Having a PO box isn't enough.
  - donmcronald 3y ago
    I don't have a huge issue with the expense, but I don't think it should be a requirement. I think it should be more of an upgrade. For example, let me get a personal code signing certificate for $50 per year and then treat an organizational cert as an upgrade where I pay $500 to have my business name on the cert. I could even see a case for having $5000+ high value certificates. The problem with that is the way companies like Microsoft handle them. Instead of telling the user "this is a low value cert", they put up a massive warning telling the user their computer is going to melt down if they trust it. It makes the decision of whether or not to run something binary and it's not. I think a system where I could sign things as trivial as PowerShell scripts would be better than what we have now. Anyone I give something like that to is going to know me personally and can easily judge the trustworthiness of what they're running by seeing my name. > This sort of "price people out of being annoying or doing things they don't remotely need" technique is extremely common in society. From what I see, it makes things difficult for someone trying to provide fair value and favors anyone willing to price gouge their customers. Even worse, criminal activity is extremely high margin and industrial scale bad actors have no problem paying for things like EV code signing certificates. > EV certs involve a pretty lengthy number of checks, by the way. Having a PO box isn't enough. And, based on my experience, it's all a big clown show. The people doing the verification are at a huge informational disadvantage because (I'm assuming) they're in a processing somewhere with minimal training and are expected to verify identities for every jurisdiction in the world. It's like me trying to verify the identity of someone in China. No matter how much training you give me, I'm probably never going to be as good at it as a local would be. The whole system could be better. I would prefer to see something where everything starts with a personal code signing certificate for a natural person and where getting an EV certificate requires an attestation from someone with a personal certificate. My identity is more valuable than a shell company. There's no incentive for anyone to fix it either. The platform owners benefit immensely if people abandon a standardized code signing system in favor of the signing certificates they issue for their app stores. IMO that's half the reason Microsoft abused their market position to kill AppGet. Anything that improves competition for app distribution isn't going to be allowed.
t3rabytes 3y ago
> In and out in 5 minutes. Most of my USPS experiences are great once I actually get to the desk, but it might take 45-60 minutes of standing in line before I actually get there.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  So, there's a great government (+) agency clearly capable of providing you with excellent service, but chronically understaffed. I wonder why that is? (+) yes, yes, we all know that the "government" part of USPS is a bit strange, albeit not as strange as Amtrak.
  - pests 3y ago
    I always thought the USPS would be the perfect agency for more public outreach and goverment-citizen interaction. It sounds weird when its stated, but they are the only government entity that sends an employee to your house 6 times a week. It could quickly turn distopian but I could imagine the mailman becoming your single stop for interacting with the government and its services.
- DANmode 3y ago
  At what time of day?
kylehotchkiss 3y ago
> state IDs are accepted, but not US passports and other federal identity credentials Federal documents don't have authenticated addresses. The view seems to be that only state agencies are capable of verifying you actually live at the address on your ID (See Real ID for more context).
- techsupporter 3y ago
  > Federal documents don't have authenticated addresses. I wonder why that matters. If I am provably who I say I am, why is the address important? Also, not specifically for you, but generally what about states that don't reissue IDs when someone moves? (I suppose their answer to that is "get an updated ID and try again".)
  - abirch 3y ago
    Michael B. Jordan could try to be Michael Jordan. There are many popular names out there. Heck I'd change my name to Bill Gates.
    - CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
      "try" isn't even needed. Example: Two people, living at the same address, whose names differ only in the middle initial. One person moves, submitting the change-of-address form. They then start to get some (or all) of the mail for the other person.
      - Mountain_Skies 3y ago
        Four generations of men in my family have the same name other than suffix. At times three of them lived at the same address. It has caused a number of issues over the years, including unintended cross access to bank accounts. Despite the problems it sometimes creates, they seem to be amused by the confusion.
  - simcop2387 3y ago
    For mail forwarding at least, there could be two John Smiths and requesting forwarding for the wrong one would let someone steal mail easily.
tshaddox 3y ago
I'm glad you had a good experience. I recently had a terrible experience with what should have been an even simpler verification process. My wife and I ended up moving (within California) on short notice that overlapped my wife's unrelated trip out of the country. Despite very clear documentation on the USPS website about the documentation required for me to verify my wife's identity (and my relationship to her) in order to complete a Change of Address order on her behalf, the USPS employee immediately and aggressively accused me of attempting identity theft. No amount of showing him the USPS documentation about how to verify a spouse's identity would convince him. At the second USPS office I tried, the guy was very nice, but also said that due to a high rate of identity theft they are refusing to do anything without the person there. Luckily we only had a short interval where mail wasn't being forwarded before my wife returned and verified her identity in person, and probably didn't miss any important mail.
- dv_dt 3y ago
  I have always filled out change of address online with no issues. But I suppose it’s been 5-6 years since I last did this.
  - tshaddox 3y ago
    When you do it online they have some sort of risk estimation thing where you provide (if I remember correctly) a credit card and a phone number. When I completed mine online, it said I was instantly verified, but for my wife it said additional in-person verification was required. I suspect it's because she changed her name when we got married and whatever online identity service they use has a combination of her old and new names.
  - bee_rider 3y ago
    Their system is quite picky about address formatting (they ask to do a small transaction; you billing address better match the address USPS has for you exactly, stuff like RD vs road matters). I ended up changing my billing address in my bank to exactly match what USPS wanted. Which worked, and was fine, but did leave me wondering what would prevent someone else from doing that with their own bank account if they wanted to change my address for some weird reason.
toss1 3y ago
Does this work for a family member who cannot physically present themselves at a Post Office, e.g., due to illness or incapacity? (looks like this is what you are reporting, but the phrasing is a bit ambiguous on that detail - thanks!)
- CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
  The USPS in-person method is an exceptional flow; it's only used if other options are unavailable. If someone is ill, then you should use the remote options that are already available for ID verification. ID.me has tip for friends & family that are helping with this: https://help.id.me/hc/en-us/articles/4589202735639-Helping-friends-or-family-members-verify-their-identity-using-ID-me https://help.id.me/hc/en-us/articles/4589202735639-Helping-f... If a person is ill, and the normal (remote) methods don't work, my suggestion would be to reach out to the Postmaster for your local area (if you have multiple post offices in your area, there may be one Postmaster for all of them). Meet them in person and explain the situation. Before you reach out, get documentation from a local doctor to back up your case. Ask what options are available. If someone is incapacitated, then identity verification is not going to work, but that's the point: If you don't currently have the capacity to participate in transactions, that responsibility falls to someone else (spouse, next of kin, power of attorney, court-appointed person), etc..
FireBeyond 3y ago
ID.me was hot garbage for a long time. Scanned my Driver's License at 200dpi. "Unable to find a face in the image you uploaded." Okay, 300dpi. "Unable to find a face in the image you uploaded." Huh. Scan at 72dpi. Success. Scan back of DL at 72dpi. "Unable to read barcode." Scan back of DL at 200dpi. "Unable to read barcode." Scan at 300dpi. Success. What a shitshow.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
  Is ID.me service still run by some questionable third party company and not the actual government?
  - onetokeoverthe 3y ago
    [dead]

belltaco 3y ago

Maybe Google can pay for this to restore access to Gmail even if for a fee.

fatfingerd 3y ago
For some postal employees easy access to credit card mailings is irresistible and they get prosecuted for credit card fraud.. The specifics of what they record in a verification is a bit vague and I would be concerned that some would sell celebrity accounts, or a way to get into an account used for private financial access, etc, even if the access to identity with other government agencies is theoretically a bigger pot.

macinjosh 3y ago

Is it OK to force folks to go to the Post Office to verify their government issued ID, in order to say receive benefits or pay a tax or fee? It is exclusionary to verify ID when voting, so what is the difference here?

devmor 3y ago
It's not a forced method, its an option. In my experience setting up my own Login.gov account, and helping family members with theirs, the online methods have frequent and frustrating technical difficulties. This option may be preferable than spending an hour or two trying to get the Login.gov mobile website to actually use your device's camera.
- Ridj48dhsnsh 3y ago
  If their tech decides it doesn't like my de-googled phone, then it becomes no longer optional.
  - shelbel 3y ago
    Can you say more? Like describe what your experience with it was
    - Ridj48dhsnsh 3y ago
      I haven't actually used the system in question; I'm just speculating based on my frustration with the increasing number of banking, trading, and even taxi booking apps that will refuse to work on modified phones.
      - devmor 3y ago
        For me, it wasn’t even a modified phone. It was just a bog standard iPhone 14 Pro.
redavni 3y ago
Outside of California, excluding criminals from defrauding the government is viewed as a good thing.

jdblair 3y ago

This is way better than the "20 questions" identity verification that works by asking you multiple-choice questions about your credit report. I have about a 80% success rate with those.

Animats 3y ago

What, no biometrics?

kylehotchkiss 3y ago
There is no federal database to verify biometrics against. The state ones are not shared federally. How could a post office implement that?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  If the person seeking proofing is enrolled in Global Entry or PreCheck, the USPS could support automated facial recognition proofing at USPS kiosks, as CBP maintains facial biometrics for trusted traveler programs. Can USPS kiosks run a sandboxed app to do this? Can you trust the data connection between the kiosk and federal agency systems with such sensitive data? Great questions. Definitely a stretch goal considering resourcing, inter agency partnership challenges, and uptake of trusted traveler programs across the general populace, but not technically infeasible. TSA is already testing automated credential proofing terminals at airport checkpoints, for example, and CBP Global Entry terminals for international arrivals are already automated kiosks. https://uspsblog.com/usps-self-service-kiosk/ https://uspsblog.com/usps-self-service-kiosk/ https://www.cbp.gov/travel/biometrics https://www.cbp.gov/travel/biometrics https://thepointsguy.com/news/global-entry-facial-recognition/ https://thepointsguy.com/news/global-entry-facial-recognitio... https://thepointsguy.com/news/tsa-facial-recognition-software/ https://thepointsguy.com/news/tsa-facial-recognition-softwar... (you probably don't need this if you have global entry, but fun thought experiment considering data sources and technology implementation feasibility; maybe upgrade someones IAL automatically at Login.gov when they're doing their Global Entry or PreCheck interviews at CBP?)
  - kylehotchkiss 3y ago
    Trusted traveler programs have pretty wide latitude for removing members (for example, for something as small as not declaring a banana in your bag or bringing a spouse without global entry into that lane) and aren’t setup for use as identity verification. Plus it’d be a very small percentage of Americans - remember only around 55% have a passport. The amount with global entry will be a small percentage of that.

lxgr 3y ago

This used to be what everybody in Germany had to do to open a bank account or request a new credit card, until the alternative of KYC by video call became popular. It's not efficient by any means, but in my view it beats the US practice treating an SSN as a password, together with bizarre "security questions" sourced from public records that some banks use as a "verification method". And no, "phone number verification" (that really only works for phone numbers with the big three mobile carriers) should also never have been a thing. I really, really hope to see a usable-by-everyone identification method one day, as opposed to "usable by enough", with a sizable fraction of the population just being denied access to credit, banking, and more, just because they don't exist in the expected form in some creepy data miner's database. Ironically, German ID cards support exactly such a method: You can just tap it on your iOS or Android phone for a "qualified electronic signature" as defined by EU law. And as a non-citizen, you can now finally get an "e-ID only" card, so nobody is excluded from that scheme! Unfortunately, I don't know a single person that remembers their six-digit PIN that's required for that feature...

cesarb 3y ago
> Unfortunately, I don't know a single person that remembers their six-digit PIN that's required for that feature... IIRC, enabling that feature is optional (disabled by default), and if you never enabled it, you don't even have that six-digit PIN.
- lxgr 3y ago
  As far as I know, it's now mandatory, i.e. you'll receive a random PIN in the mail after requesting a new ID card whether you want to use it or not.
overlordalex 3y ago
That's if you even got a pin in the first place! I discovered this recently when I wanted to use the gloriously named AusweisApp2 (ID app 2, superseding a PC app which was at least forward thinking enough to be called ID app 1). In theory it's simple to request a new pin - you can even do it within the app! However I've moved since I acquired the card, and so instead of the reset mails going to my registered address, I can only assume they went to the address stored on the card. And in a catch-22 of course you can only update that with a pin... But no worries, you can simply book an appointment at your nearest buergeramt to have a pin reset in person; except there are no free slots in the next 3 months.. anywhere! I needed documents for a new visa, which should give me a new card (and hopefully a new pin!), which ultimately turned out to be faster to do than trying to sort out the damn pin

atonse 3y ago

I'm a huge fan of login.gov – It's just really nicely implemented, simple to use, accessible, and I love their reuse of well thought out ideas in the Federal Government of IALs (Identity Assurance Levels). I hope this system expands further, and even that local governments also start to use it.

homero 3y ago
Odd the IRS won't use it
- YeBanKo 3y ago
  Someone in IRS IT procurement department is aiming for a nice position in the private industry.

keyme 3y ago

It's almost as if you could use something like that for voting...

bagels 3y ago

USPS doesn't even know the difference between Australia and Curaçao, good luck.

CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
Uh, could you please provide some background for your statement?

SoftTalker 3y ago

Shouldn't the service be called "Identity Proving" ? "Identity Proofing" makes it sound like something that prevents you from being identified.

mttjj 3y ago
It sounds right to me. I think definitions 1 and 3 of the noun form of the word apply here. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proof https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proof

supernova87a 3y ago

They should expand this service to make the USPS some profit, and offer to banks, credit cards, real estate, city/state governments, etc. to combat the rising (maybe perceived, but certainly lots of real) problems with proving someone's real identity and fraud. The virtual world has opened up new channels for fraud and it seems government is just way behind on this. Almost to the level that some institutional trust is starting to break down (not to be too exaggerated about it though). (see pandemic relief funds)

ibejoeb 3y ago
Why would I pay to interface with the government?
- late25 3y ago
  I’d pay to make sure others can’t in my name.
- sagarm 3y ago
  Many US government services already involve fees.

Simulacra 3y ago

This would be useful for mailing ballots.

foogazi 3y ago

This is great example of the USPS as the federal government store front. They already handle passport appointments. I’d like to see options for the unhoused and unbanked: Homeless people get ID verified, get virtual mail access: all mail scanned and available online, physical mail at closest zip Low income unbanked get access to free banking options

supernova87a 3y ago
The stupid thing is that (I understand) the USPS is prohibited by law from offering such services. Go figure.
- CaliforniaKarl 3y ago
  Source?
  - supernova87a 3y ago
    https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-20-354#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20USPS%20is%20prohibited,by%20the%20Postal%20Regulatory%20Commission https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-20-354#:~:text=In%20general....
    - foogazi 3y ago
      > unless approved by the Postal Regulatory Commission All laws can be changed
      - supernova87a 3y ago
        https://www.theonion.com/congress-forgets-how-to-pass-a-law-1819594959 https://www.theonion.com/congress-forgets-how-to-pass-a-law-...
- lxgr 3y ago
  That's truly ironic – in Europe, the giro/wire transfer system has its roots in the postal service in many countries! In the US, a similar thing happened for American Express and Western Union, which also started out as postal and telegraph service providers before they became financial service providers.

ineptech 3y ago

Very cool, I hope this gets widespread enough to become the default way to prove identity online. I know a lot of people are very concerned about preserving the right to be anonymous, but it should be equally concerning that it's difficult to not be anonymous without involving a giant corporation. Would it be too much to ask for a Keybase style app on top of this? One can hope...

AdamJacobMuller 3y ago
That was my first thought with too. I hope it doesn't become the default for most sites (which have no need for your actual identity) but for many use cases I can see the need for varying levels of identity tied to your real identity. Minimally, login.gov could issue a (globally) unique token which they will only issue one per user per site, which would effectively allow the site to enforce a 1:1 human:account ratio (or at least know which accounts are linked to which humans) without disclosing any actual details of the human.
- tzs 3y ago
  > I hope it doesn't become the default for most sites (which have no need for your actual identity) but for many use cases I can see the need for varying levels of identity tied to your real identity Varying levels is probably the right approach. For most sites all they need to know when I create an account is that I control the email address that I am using to sign up. If I ever again need to prove my identity to them proving that I receive email at that address is good enough. For the site that provides my email address they need something other than email to identify me. If I'm using an email provider that lets you bring your own domain, they could use proof that I control the DNS for that domain as proof of identity. How to prove identity to my domain registrar? I could use an email address that is not hosted somewhere that depends on my proof of domain ownership, like gmail or my ISP, but that is probably not a good idea. Ultimately, my ability to prove my identity at most sites would depend on proving identity to my domain registrar (or to my email host if I don't have my own domain), and so making that depend on remaining in good standing with Google might not be wise. What we need for proving identity to a domain register (or an email provider if you don't have your own domain) is something that we can be sure we can rely on, because in the worst case when you've been massively hacked and your identity has been stolen at multiple sites and services that is going to be the identity proof you count on to let you recover everything else. For that something like the USPS identity service would be great.

User23 3y ago

The Post Office is definitely the most pleasant interaction most Americans will ever have with a federal agent. Although I will tell you, don't ever eff with a postal inspector. Those people have police powers that could make a game warden salivate.

YeBanKo 3y ago

This is how it should be done for mission critical stuff. We already invest in USPS infrastructure, this is a good use for it. I don’t want another id.me to use a gov service.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

nlawalker 3y ago

Somewhat related: you can request your US federal-level rap sheet (“Identity History Summary”) from the FBI for a small fee, commonly done as part of an application process for a long-term visa abroad. If you use their online form to request it, they’ll give you a barcode you can take to a participating post office, where they will collect your fingerprints digitally. https://www.fbi.gov/how-we-can-help-you/more-fbi-services-and-information/identity-history-summary-checks#Online https://www.fbi.gov/how-we-can-help-you/more-fbi-services-an...

homero 3y ago

Why doesn't the IRS use Login.gov