6 ms·

Minor point - is first class 2x only? My recent experience with international flights indicates that business class is 5x of the premium economy seats, which a

by gota 3y ago

Minor point - is first class 2x only? My recent experience with international flights indicates that business class is 5x of the premium economy seats, which are 1.5x already

logifail 3y ago
> My recent experience with international flights indicates that business class is 5x of the premium economy seats, which are 1.5x already If you were to buy the cheapest (non-flexible) business class fare many months in advance, you might well get it for significantly less than a flexible economy fare sold one week before departure. Also note that airlines price on origin and destination, indirect (connecting) flights typically cost less than direct, so if you want to fly from London to New York, in business class, it's almost certainly going to be cheaper to fly somewhere else and to start your journey (and fare) from there, and fly _via London_ to NYC. Specifically you'd fly first to Dublin (or Oslo, or Budapest, or ...), then turn around and fly DUB/OSL/BUD-LON-NYC-LON-DUB/OSL/BUD. Airline pricing can be very, very counter-intuitive to the uninitiated. (Source: have paid for 20+ business class flights in the last 12 months, none of which were what I'd call expensive, as I despite being a miles collector I am fairly price sensitive. Just as happy to fly with Ryanair or Easyjet when value for money is to be found there)
- Tangurena2 3y ago
  Prices are also different based on the language you use on the airlines website. US to EU prices tend to be different if you use the carrier's native language vs English.
  - closewith 3y ago
    That would be unlawful in every country in the EU (price discrimination based on a proxy of the nationality protected characteristic).
    - yeahboats 3y ago
      It would not be as long as they were accessible to everyone. > However, traders may still set different net sale prices in different points of sale, such as shops and websites, or may target specific offers only to a specific territory within a Member State. Under EU rules, all these offers must be accessible for consumers from other EU countries. They are not allowed to redirect you without your consent, and you must also be able to change location at any time. >Where a trader has several country versions of the same website, such as a webshop selling products to different countries across the EU, you should be able to choose to view which version you visit. You must give your permission to be redirected to a specific country version of the website. You should also be able to change your choice at any time. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treatment/unfair-pricing/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treat...
      - KptMarchewa 3y ago
        AA forced me to play with PLN instead of USD on my revolut card, of course using their extremely inflated currency rate instead of flat revolut one.
      - closewith 3y ago
        With respect, you left out the next paragraph from your quote, which shows that in the case of airlines, it would indeed be unlawful: > However, there is no possible justification for differences in access to goods or services for customers from different EU countries in the following three situations: > sale of goods without physical delivery – for example, if you buy something online that you will collect from a shop, rather than have it delivered to your home > sale of electronically supplied services (excluding copyright protected content) – such as cloud computing services, or website hosting > sale of services provided in a specific location – for example hotel bookings, car hire, tickets for entry to theme parks
bombcar 3y ago
First class inside the USA can be cheap, cheaper than paying extra baggage allowance, even.
AdrianB1 3y ago
On international long flights business class is ~ 2x or more, first class is a lot more.
- fredoliveira 3y ago
  I fly back and forth from the EU to the US and I've flown multiple times in business or first, and to this day I have no idea what the difference is between the two. If they charge more for one than the other, then I'd really like to know what they're charging for.
- nradov 3y ago
  Many of the travelers who end up with those premium tickets didn't pay full price. They have corporate discount deals or got upgraded based on status.
bootlooped 3y ago
I've often thought this is some kind of market inefficiency that I don't quite have the vocabulary or expertise to describe. You don't get 5x more space or service. Shouldn't it be roughly proportional to how much more it costs the airline, plus some extra profit on top? Instead it seems like an absolutely massive premium.
- thirtyseven 3y ago
  It's price discrimination. Some airline users are not price sensitive (the wealthy, corporate travelers with expense accounts) and they don't care about getting maximum value for their dollar. Economy fliers do.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    It's also a pretty good subsidy to economy fliers.
    - thirtyseven 3y ago
      Assuming they don't intentionally make economy worse to increase the perceived value of first class.
- balderdash 3y ago
  Lay flat business class seats probably take up the equivalent of ~4 economy seats…
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
  Charging that much seems fine to me, I think doing what you are describing would create a market inefficiency. 5x seems to be what the market is willing to pay for that seat, which is fine. It excludes lower income people from ever taking business class but those higher priced seats help make travel more affordable in the uncomfortable, jam packed rear of the plane
coldcode 3y ago
I wanted to go on a trans-atlantic cruise but the one way return flight (Premium economy, I am too tall for regular 30" seat pitch) was $2000. Regular economy was closer to $600-$800. Not even round trip.
- switch007 3y ago
  Premium economy prices have gone mad.
- atq2119 3y ago
  Unlike domestic flights, international flights are often priced as essentially round-trip only. In the sense that buying one-way is almost as expensive as round-trip. I haven't yet figured out what the exact logic is behind this and when it applies; it's just been my personal experience.
CobaltFire 3y ago
My recent experiences with ANA/Delta have trans-Pacific routes at Business being ~5x economy, and First being ~2x Business.
ValentineC 3y ago
> Minor point - is first class 2x only? I think the biggest problem with the terminology is that domestic (US) First is often hardly comparable to international Business Class, but more like European regional Business, which is more often than not just the lack of a middle seat. The large US airlines even have different terms for their international Business offerings: United Polaris, American Flagship, and Delta One.
dehrmann 3y ago
I meant domestic first. International first is unimaginable by 1970's standards.

by gota 3y ago

Minor point - is first class 2x only? My recent experience with international flights indicates that business class is 5x of the premium economy seats, which are 1.5x already

logifail 3y ago

> My recent experience with international flights indicates that business class is 5x of the premium economy seats, which are 1.5x already If you were to buy the cheapest (non-flexible) business class fare many months in advance, you might well get it for significantly less than a flexible economy fare sold one week before departure. Also note that airlines price on origin and destination, indirect (connecting) flights typically cost less than direct, so if you want to fly from London to New York, in business class, it's almost certainly going to be cheaper to fly somewhere else and to start your journey (and fare) from there, and fly _via London_ to NYC. Specifically you'd fly first to Dublin (or Oslo, or Budapest, or ...), then turn around and fly DUB/OSL/BUD-LON-NYC-LON-DUB/OSL/BUD. Airline pricing can be very, very counter-intuitive to the uninitiated. (Source: have paid for 20+ business class flights in the last 12 months, none of which were what I'd call expensive, as I despite being a miles collector I am fairly price sensitive. Just as happy to fly with Ryanair or Easyjet when value for money is to be found there)

Tangurena2 3y ago
Prices are also different based on the language you use on the airlines website. US to EU prices tend to be different if you use the carrier's native language vs English.
- closewith 3y ago
  That would be unlawful in every country in the EU (price discrimination based on a proxy of the nationality protected characteristic).
  - yeahboats 3y ago
    It would not be as long as they were accessible to everyone. > However, traders may still set different net sale prices in different points of sale, such as shops and websites, or may target specific offers only to a specific territory within a Member State. Under EU rules, all these offers must be accessible for consumers from other EU countries. They are not allowed to redirect you without your consent, and you must also be able to change location at any time. >Where a trader has several country versions of the same website, such as a webshop selling products to different countries across the EU, you should be able to choose to view which version you visit. You must give your permission to be redirected to a specific country version of the website. You should also be able to change your choice at any time. https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treatment/unfair-pricing/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/unfair-treat...
    - KptMarchewa 3y ago
      AA forced me to play with PLN instead of USD on my revolut card, of course using their extremely inflated currency rate instead of flat revolut one.
    - closewith 3y ago
      With respect, you left out the next paragraph from your quote, which shows that in the case of airlines, it would indeed be unlawful: > However, there is no possible justification for differences in access to goods or services for customers from different EU countries in the following three situations: > sale of goods without physical delivery – for example, if you buy something online that you will collect from a shop, rather than have it delivered to your home > sale of electronically supplied services (excluding copyright protected content) – such as cloud computing services, or website hosting > sale of services provided in a specific location – for example hotel bookings, car hire, tickets for entry to theme parks

bombcar 3y ago

First class inside the USA can be cheap, cheaper than paying extra baggage allowance, even.

AdrianB1 3y ago

On international long flights business class is ~ 2x or more, first class is a lot more.

fredoliveira 3y ago
I fly back and forth from the EU to the US and I've flown multiple times in business or first, and to this day I have no idea what the difference is between the two. If they charge more for one than the other, then I'd really like to know what they're charging for.
nradov 3y ago
Many of the travelers who end up with those premium tickets didn't pay full price. They have corporate discount deals or got upgraded based on status.

bootlooped 3y ago

I've often thought this is some kind of market inefficiency that I don't quite have the vocabulary or expertise to describe. You don't get 5x more space or service. Shouldn't it be roughly proportional to how much more it costs the airline, plus some extra profit on top? Instead it seems like an absolutely massive premium.

thirtyseven 3y ago
It's price discrimination. Some airline users are not price sensitive (the wealthy, corporate travelers with expense accounts) and they don't care about getting maximum value for their dollar. Economy fliers do.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  It's also a pretty good subsidy to economy fliers.
  - thirtyseven 3y ago
    Assuming they don't intentionally make economy worse to increase the perceived value of first class.
balderdash 3y ago
Lay flat business class seats probably take up the equivalent of ~4 economy seats…
SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
Charging that much seems fine to me, I think doing what you are describing would create a market inefficiency. 5x seems to be what the market is willing to pay for that seat, which is fine. It excludes lower income people from ever taking business class but those higher priced seats help make travel more affordable in the uncomfortable, jam packed rear of the plane

coldcode 3y ago

I wanted to go on a trans-atlantic cruise but the one way return flight (Premium economy, I am too tall for regular 30" seat pitch) was $2000. Regular economy was closer to $600-$800. Not even round trip.

switch007 3y ago
Premium economy prices have gone mad.
atq2119 3y ago
Unlike domestic flights, international flights are often priced as essentially round-trip only. In the sense that buying one-way is almost as expensive as round-trip. I haven't yet figured out what the exact logic is behind this and when it applies; it's just been my personal experience.

CobaltFire 3y ago

My recent experiences with ANA/Delta have trans-Pacific routes at Business being ~5x economy, and First being ~2x Business.

ValentineC 3y ago

> Minor point - is first class 2x only? I think the biggest problem with the terminology is that domestic (US) First is often hardly comparable to international Business Class, but more like European regional Business, which is more often than not just the lack of a middle seat. The large US airlines even have different terms for their international Business offerings: United Polaris, American Flagship, and Delta One.

dehrmann 3y ago

I meant domestic first. International first is unimaginable by 1970's standards.