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The overwhelming way the left talks about it is in terms of "toxic" masculinity or through the perspective of feminism. The latter is a valid perspective, but
by mellosouls 3y ago
The overwhelming way the left talks about it is in terms of "toxic" masculinity or through the perspective of feminism.
The latter is a valid perspective, but dominates the discourse which is hardly a balanced approach.
- inemesitaffia 3y ago[dead]
- gopherthon 3y ago[flagged]
- hdjjhhvvhga 3y agoBut it's not a binary choice. You can point out the right is irrational about the situation of women and at the same time agree with them on certain points regarding the situation of boys and men.
- nrdxp 3y ago[flagged]
- dang 3y agoPlease don't use HN for ideological battle. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- dang 3y agoPlease don't use HN for ideological battle. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- zzzeek 3y ago[flagged]
- hellisothers 3y agoI believe what the OP is getting at is the masculinity discussion on the left is predominantly about what not to do while the discussion on the right is more often about what to do. If the left doesn’t provide a framework and examples of what positive masculinity looks like it presents a risk of young impressionable people draping themselves over the framework that is being provided by others.
- klyrs 3y agoMy dad would tell other men "don't be a pussy," an attitude that is far from dead on the right. I've read a lot of advice from left, "men, seek therapy." I'm not sure that either side has a monopoly on positive/negative framing.
- chasebank 3y agoI'm confident that attitude is directionally agnostic. Most of the guys I'm surrounded by lean heavily left and still use "don't be a pussy" regularly.
- klyrs 3y agoWell, I was trying to avoid pointing out the wide gulf between "the left" and "feminism" which are being equated here, but your anecdote does a great job of that.
- mortureb 3y agoDon’t be a pussy is still very good advice.
- zzzeek 3y ago[flagged]
- dustedrob 3y ago[flagged]
- asdiovjdfi 3y agoDo you really think that is gender specific?
- david38 3y agoThis is so full of crap it’s nothing but sheer fantasy. Majority of male health issues? By your own description you had a personally bad experience (sample of one) during childhood that you compare to your wife, someone you chose likely BECAUSE of your experiences during adulthood. Your comparison is so off-base and sample size so small as to be meaningless.
- dustedrob 3y agoI'm surprised my comment triggered you so easily. Obviously my personal experience will be sample size of one and I'm not invested enough in an internet discussion to try to support my comment but trying to deny things that are easily observable is just laughable.
- Gibbon1 3y agoMy problem besides pure misandrists hiding behind feminism is the quasi-marxist idea that men are a separate species that exploits women. As opposed to the reality that ordinary men are exploited as much but different. In particular you see pointless bashing of young men. Who are actually at the very bottom of the patriarcal order, completely disposable and a seen mostly as fodder. So punching at young men is actually punching down and reinforcing the patriarcal order.
- belltaco 3y ago> In particular you see pointless bashing of young men Examples? >the quasi-marxist idea that men are a separate species that exploits women How is that quasi-marxist?
- ClumsyPilot 3y agoPoor old Karl is not just turning in his grave, he is spinning at high RPM. Whatever the politics, he can’t get any rest.
- gspencley 3y ago> How is that quasi-marxist? One of Marxism's core tenets is class struggle: The bourgeois vs the proletariat. Feminism offers a similar narrative, only the proletariat is patriarchy. A group or institution that allegedly serves to advance the interests of men at the expense of women; placing men into positions of power and leadership so that they can enjoy social benefits and privileges intentionally not offered to women. Most "*-isms" offer this type of narrative. The only thing that changes are the particular power groups vs oppressed. It's not a "left" or "right" phenomenon. Nazism offered the same story and used its ideological bullshit to justify persecution of the Jews: by painting them as a self-serving group that was occupying institutions of power. The most effective way to get people to hate others is to make the others look both powerful and self-interested.
- sharts 3y agoIn this feminism analogy the patriarchy would be the bourgeois not the proletariat.
- n3storm 3y agoIs not toxic masculinity. Is toxic humanity.
- mortureb 3y agoIt’s not toxic anything.
- klyrs 3y agoPeople use masculinity and femininity as excuses to be toxic. Neither masculinity nor femininity is toxic; the adjective serves a purpose. "Don't do ____, it makes you less of a [gender]" is toxic. "It's okay that you hurt somebody by ____, it's in your nature as a [gender]" is toxic.
- mock-possum 3y agoah yes the 'all lives matter' gambit
- mwbajor 3y agoWhy is everyone in this thread falling over themselves and starting every response with "as a liberal" or something similar? People are so afraid of talking openly about how insane the left has become that they don't see how their very responses are indicative of how the left will try to harm them in some way e.g. "how insane the left has become". Sure 20 years ago the sides were reversed but now the hypocrisy is mostly on the left ( I didnt say all), specifically when it comes to how we treat both sexes.
- scythe 3y ago"Toxic masculinity" was a perfectly reasonable concept when it was originally defined as a kind of social norm. If we interpret "masculinity" as "behavior socially expected from men", then this trivially extends to "toxic masculinity" as "toxic behavior socially expected from men". For sociologists in the early 2010s, this was a great idea and collected a lot of harmful social expectations under a convenient label. The problem is that a lot of people, many of them journalists and "influencers" writing for a lay audience, decided they could just cross out the "socially expected" part, which results in a completely different concept that puts the onus for the behavior entirely on the individual — hardly a socially enlightened perspective — and that amounts to the appropriation of academic jargon for the speaker's use as a rhetorical bludgeon. And sure, a lot of these writers were left-leaning self-described feminists who may have assumed they could do no wrong. And yes, many of these term-abusers would go on to propagate real toxic masculinity while decrying the failures of the target of the week from their position of presumed revolutionary thought. But don't blame the sociologists. They used a reasonable term to describe a real problem. And now they've had to go pick a new term — I think it's something like "male role behavior syndrome" but I don't remember exactly.
- ericfrazier 3y agoFeminism is about equality, for men too.
- hdjjhhvvhga 3y agoThis is what many feminist say. But when you look at what they actually do, most of the time they focus on female issues. It's not wrong, they're feminists after all. But taking care of male issues deserves due attention, too.