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this is what "warrant canaries" are for. dont use anyone who doesnt have one

NegativeK 3y ago
There should probably be case law before anyone actually believes in warrant canaries. 'If it's illegal to advertise that you've received a court order of some kind, it's illegal to intentionally and knowingly take any action that has the effect of advertising the receipt of that order. A judge can't force you to do anything, but every lawyer I've spoken to has indicated that having a "canary" you remove or choose not to update would likely have the same legal consequences as simply posting something that explicitly says you've received something. If any lawyers have a different legal interpretation, I'd love to hear it.' --Moxie Marlinspike
- powersnail 3y ago
  What happens when someone asks you whether you have received a court order of some kind? Are you compelled by court to lie about it?
  - Jerrrry 3y ago
    "We must comply with legal subpoenas in the jurisdiction in which we operate,"
  - TheRealPomax 3y ago
    Why would someone have to lie? They can just say "We can't comment on that" without providing an answer. And then customers can go "sounds pretty suspicious, time to switch VPN services".
    - powersnail 3y ago
      That’s kinda my point. A canary removes all the middle ground between a yes and no. Which means no comment = yes. The parent comment implies that in such a case “no comment” is not compliant with the law, as it informs the inquirer. Hence the only way to comply is to answer “no”, which is a lie.
      - TheRealPomax 3y ago
        Except "no comment" is not a yes. It's a "whether we do or don't, you are not part of that process and not privy to that information either way".
        powersnail 3y ago
        The point of the canary, is to turn any non-answer into a practical, or at least a tentative, "yes". If you no longer see an explicit "no", it means "yes".
        TheRealPomax 3y ago
        So the point of the canary is to turn a proper response into something that's flat out wrong? That seems incredibly counter-productive.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        Wrong? What do you mean? The difference between a canary and a "no comment" is that "no comment" is an extremely common thing to say whether an allegation is true or not so it's not very suspicious, while stopping a canary is very suspicious. So it's like the scenario you outlined earlier, but more effective.
        TheRealPomax 3y ago
        No, it isn't. It's pretending that "no comment" means something it doesn't. Just because you want it to mean "yes" doesn't mean it means that. It means "we are not going to comment on this, because we have a sane legal department and we're not going to give you any information one way or another". If you think "no comment" means either yes or no, you're pretending to know something you don't, and you should absolutely stop and go "wait, why am I lying to myself? And why am I believing my own lie?"
        3y ago
  - NegativeK 3y ago
    I'd hire a lawyer that knows how to deal with them and knows how to say no comment. I've always felt that the warrant canary is a nerd's gotcha designed to get out of a sketchy legal process (NSLs) and that judges would be very unsympathetic. But IANAL.
    - powersnail 3y ago
      At least from my perspective, it is not just a "gotcha" problem or whatever feelings it conjures up in a judge's mind. When a company, who already has a canary in place, receives this kind of warrants, what _can_ the company practically do to comply with non-disclosure? It seems that lying is now the only option left, if the company must explicitly post a "no, we didn't receive such a warrant".
Jerrrry 3y ago
Literal security theatre.
Terretta 3y ago
> This is what "warrant canaries" are for. dont use anyone who doesnt have one What if they have one like this quarterly canary at privacy-forward "write.as" last updated 9 months ago? It should be noted with significance if this message fails to be updated on a quarterly basis. 2023-01-05 21:06:06 UTC No warrants have ever been served to Write.as, or Write.as principals or employees. https://write.as/privacy https://write.as/privacy --> https://write.as/canary.txt https://write.as/canary.txt
- yencabulator 3y ago
  That means they're either asleep at the wheel or have already been served a warrant.

There should probably be case law before anyone actually believes in warrant canaries. 'If it's illegal to advertise that you've received a court order of some kind, it's illegal to intentionally and knowingly take any action that has the effect of advertising the receipt of that order. A judge can't force you to do anything, but every lawyer I've spoken to has indicated that having a "canary" you remove or choose not to update would likely have the same legal consequences as simply posting something that explicitly says you've received something. If any lawyers have a different legal interpretation, I'd love to hear it.' --Moxie Marlinspike

powersnail 3y ago
What happens when someone asks you whether you have received a court order of some kind? Are you compelled by court to lie about it?
- Jerrrry 3y ago
  "We must comply with legal subpoenas in the jurisdiction in which we operate,"
- TheRealPomax 3y ago
  Why would someone have to lie? They can just say "We can't comment on that" without providing an answer. And then customers can go "sounds pretty suspicious, time to switch VPN services".
  - powersnail 3y ago
    That’s kinda my point. A canary removes all the middle ground between a yes and no. Which means no comment = yes. The parent comment implies that in such a case “no comment” is not compliant with the law, as it informs the inquirer. Hence the only way to comply is to answer “no”, which is a lie.
    - TheRealPomax 3y ago
      Except "no comment" is not a yes. It's a "whether we do or don't, you are not part of that process and not privy to that information either way".
      - powersnail 3y ago
        The point of the canary, is to turn any non-answer into a practical, or at least a tentative, "yes". If you no longer see an explicit "no", it means "yes".
        TheRealPomax 3y ago
        So the point of the canary is to turn a proper response into something that's flat out wrong? That seems incredibly counter-productive.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        Wrong? What do you mean? The difference between a canary and a "no comment" is that "no comment" is an extremely common thing to say whether an allegation is true or not so it's not very suspicious, while stopping a canary is very suspicious. So it's like the scenario you outlined earlier, but more effective.
        TheRealPomax 3y ago
        No, it isn't. It's pretending that "no comment" means something it doesn't. Just because you want it to mean "yes" doesn't mean it means that. It means "we are not going to comment on this, because we have a sane legal department and we're not going to give you any information one way or another". If you think "no comment" means either yes or no, you're pretending to know something you don't, and you should absolutely stop and go "wait, why am I lying to myself? And why am I believing my own lie?"
        3y ago
- NegativeK 3y ago
  I'd hire a lawyer that knows how to deal with them and knows how to say no comment. I've always felt that the warrant canary is a nerd's gotcha designed to get out of a sketchy legal process (NSLs) and that judges would be very unsympathetic. But IANAL.
  - powersnail 3y ago
    At least from my perspective, it is not just a "gotcha" problem or whatever feelings it conjures up in a judge's mind. When a company, who already has a canary in place, receives this kind of warrants, what _can_ the company practically do to comply with non-disclosure? It seems that lying is now the only option left, if the company must explicitly post a "no, we didn't receive such a warrant".

Jerrrry 3y ago

Literal security theatre.

Terretta 3y ago

> This is what "warrant canaries" are for. dont use anyone who doesnt have one What if they have one like this quarterly canary at privacy-forward "write.as" last updated 9 months ago? It should be noted with significance if this message fails to be updated on a quarterly basis. 2023-01-05 21:06:06 UTC No warrants have ever been served to Write.as, or Write.as principals or employees. https://write.as/privacy https://write.as/privacy --> https://write.as/canary.txt https://write.as/canary.txt

yencabulator 3y ago
That means they're either asleep at the wheel or have already been served a warrant.