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For whatever reason, my first name is almost universally mispronounced in America. So early on, I made a decision to let it go and in fact introduce myself by h

For whatever reason, my first name is almost universally mispronounced in America. So early on, I made a decision to let it go and in fact introduce myself by how most English speakers said it. No regrets whatsoever, any time spent sorting phonetics out is time wasted not getting to substance of the matter we want to discuss. I also suspect that if I made a stink about it, many people would avoid me because I have a thing they need to deal with. So I don't get the current trend where everyone is your majesty and god forbid someone mangles your name, your pronoun if you didn't make it obvious by your attire or didn't spell your country with a diacritical mark not found on their keyboard. You still know that it's you and that people are just relating to you in a way which is convinient to them right? Now get to what is it that you need to do together - write some Java code, or talk about your day or whatever.

earthboundkid 3y ago
It’s a little bit of a complicated issue. On the one hand, my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American. That’s a totally normal thing, and it’s weird to complain about it. In Japan, they were often confused about which of my names was personal and which was for my family, and they never quite figured out the deal with my middle name / initial. Cultures are different, and you can’t expect everyone in one country to know everything about another. On the other hand, some people make a big show out of not knowing how to pronounce common Indian names, and that strikes me as silly/microaggressive. Hindi is spelled phonetically in English, so it’s not very hard. On the third hand though, Chinese names are often spelled with a Romanization that wasn’t designed for use by English speakers, so of course they can’t do it. If you want them to not mangle your name, use the Yale Romanization. I think people want there to be a simple answer like “everyone just change your name to John Smith” or “if they can’t pronounce Xi Jinping, they’re racists” but simple answers don’t really apply. We’re all just going to muddle through the best we can.
- kibwen 3y ago
  > my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American I'd be interested to hear the story there. When it comes to surnames, AFAIK nearly every US state lets you put basically any arbitrary assembly of English characters as the last name for a child, with even fewer restrictions on the last names for adults.
  - deleted 3y ago
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  - wrsh07 3y ago
    Ah but at immigration you may have been expected to spell your name and were sort of at the whim of the official (who was helping intake many people) Lots of reasons you might not have your official name written or heard correctly
  - ssklash 3y ago
    I would assume the reason is not a legal one, but a cultural one, i.e. having a very obviously foreign name a few generations ago in the US might make you a target of discrimination. Changing something like "Alexei" to "Alex" would help you stand out less.
  - earthboundkid 3y ago
    My great grandfather emigrated as a young person and started using his father's patronym as his own last name instead of continuing to use his father's first name as his patronym. He could have kept the patronym tradition alive, but why? He was in America now, and once his kids were born, they mostly spoke English anyway.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  > Hindi is spelled phonetically in English This isn’t the case. I have a formal background in linguistics and have a vague familiarity with the Indic branch of the Indo-European languages in general, and I still occasionally screw up in pronouncing Hindi (or other Indian languages’) words that are written in informal Latin transliteration. Most notably, whether the sound written <a> denotes [ə] or [aː] is often ambiguous.
  - earthboundkid 3y ago
    It's not ambiguous if the macrons are included, but yes, in everyday texts, the macrons are often dropped.
- RandallBrown 3y ago
  > Hindi is spelled phonetically in English, so it’s not very hard. In my experience it's extremely hard to get right. At one of my jobs pronunciation of Indian words (mostly food and names) was a fairly common topic of conversation and it was impossible for the non-Indians to get correct. To my American ear it usually sounded exactly the same (even if it wasn't me saying it) but they would always say it wasn't quite right.
  - zffr 3y ago
    The reason for this is probably that Hindi has a few extra sounds that just don’t exist in English. For many consonants Hindi has 2 versions (aspirated and non-aspirated). It also has several different kinds of “d” sounds instead of just 1
  - sbehere 3y ago
    I think certain sounds are hard for Western speakers to pronounce, while others are easy. Specifically, Hindi (and many other Sanskrit-derived languages) distinguish between some sounds (which have correspondingly different characters in the written script) that are often indistinguishable to Western ears. And if you can't hear the difference, you are unlikely to be able to say it right. These sounds typically come in groups of four. For example, there are 4 "T" sounds in Hindi: त थ ट ठ. If you pronounce each of these correctly, Indian ears will hear 4 distinct sounds. Western ears will typically hear the same sound 4 times. If they are listening attentively the second time around, they may be able to distinguish at most 2 different sounds, but not 4. Given this, Western speakers are unlikely to correctly pronounce a word containing one of these sounds. The good news is that even if a Western speaker has incorrect pronunciation, in the vast majority of cases native Hindi speakers would be able to understand what was meant.. so the communication still happens effectively. Furthermore, regardless of language, I like to believe that most native speakers will very much appreciate efforts to speak the language, no matter how mangled the pronunciation is.
    - meepmorp 3y ago
      > For example, there are 4 "T" sounds in Hindi: त थ ट ठ. Out of curiosity, are these distinguished as alveolar vs retroflex and aspirated vs non-aspirated?
- javier_e06 3y ago
  I agree on the "death by thousand cuts that people with foreign names experience in the US" It reminds me of the meme that reads: "You speak English because is the only language you know. I speak English because is the only language you know. We are not the same". Why Starubucks insist on asking for my name just to mangle it in the cup for posterity?
  - kergonath 3y ago
    > Why Starubucks insist on asking for my name just to mangle it in the cup for posterity? I have an English nickname just for when I go to Starbucks abroad. It's much easier that way.
  - earthboundkid 3y ago
    My name is a totally bog standard American name and Starbucks or whoever cannot get it right if I just say it. I have internalized this now so I always say my name followed by spelling it (fortunately, it's very short). I think it's an important bit of context that even if your name is something like "Karen" or whatever, they will mishear it and misspell it as "Cathrine". It's not a unique microaggression imposed on people with names that are uncommon in the US.
    - rigrassm 3y ago
      Seconding this experience. My first name is "Ricky" and I very frequently have to correct people (mainly in drive throughs and over the phone) who repeat back to me "Britney" or "Nicky". Very possible I just suck at enunciating my name and no one has had the heart to tell me all these years.
- kergonath 3y ago
  > Hindi is spelled phonetically in English Reading English phonetically is highly non-trivial. Each vowel can be pronounced different ways depending on factors that are not always easy to understand, particularly for non-native speakers. Same for a lot of consonants. I have no clue which accent I am supposed to have when reading romanised Hindi. East coast American? Estuary English? British RP? Australian? That could be 4 different ways of pronouncing the letter "A". Hell, I am not even sure all Hindi speakers would agree on the pronunciation of a random word because of differing accents. > On the third hand though, Chinese names are often spelled with a Romanization that wasn’t designed for use by English speakers, so of course they can’t do it. If you want them to not mangle your name, use the Yale Romanization. You cannot expect people to know of any specific romanisation scheme. There are different ones, used by different people and in different contexts, and that are often at odds with the spelling of well known names (like famous people or cities). What's hilarious is people in a non-English speaking country, e.g. Germany or France, using the same romanisation as in English because it's "the correct way" and then getting the phonetics completely wrong. > I think people want there to be a simple answer like “everyone just change your name to John Smith” or “if they can’t pronounce Xi Jinping, they’re racists” but simple answers don’t really apply. We’re all just going to muddle through the best we can. Exactly. Ideally, it's best effort on both sides: don't be a dick if they pronounce your name wrong a couple of times and hopefully they won't be idiots either and at least try. As a non-native English speaker who's spent quite a few years in English-speaking countries, sometimes you roll your eyes and sometimes it's funny, but it is rarely worth fighting about pronunciation issues.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  > Hindi is spelled phonetically in English Bold of you to say it's possible to "spell phonetically in English"
  - anotheruser13 3y ago
    The Japanese language enters and says, "Hold my beer."
    - earthboundkid 3y ago
      I think the Japanese have a good system internally. They convert foreign sounds into sounds that work in their language. Of course, this bites them in the ass when they try to actually speak a foreign language, but as long as you're speaking Japanese with some foreign words mixed in, it's fine and the system works.
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
It's a "pick your battles" kinda thing, you're not gonna get someone at Starbucks write your name down properly if it isn't something they can easily hear over the murmur of a crowd. That said, if I were in that situation I would double down on it in anything formal - documents, graduation ceremonies, weddings, lawsuits, etc.
- dehrmann 3y ago
  I have a coworker named Domas. It's pronounceable enough, but he uses Thomas (which is actually just a variation of the same name in some cultures) as his Starbucks name for...reasons.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    That's pretty funny.
EatingWithForks 3y ago
I agree to some extent. There's definitely weirdos that purposefully use names and pronoun mangling to antagonize or ostracize someone, or put in literally no effort to respect someone. I've definitely heard/seen "your name's too hard, I'll just call you $some_arbitrary_name" like an adopted animal or something and that always struck me as a dick move.
- jjoonathan 3y ago
  Yes, though the opposite also happens: people spend time struggling over your name when you don't want to be a language tutor.
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    Yes I also think that's weirdo behavior. I'm just pointing out there may very well be a reason why someone may be insisting on pronoun/name correctness-- if the other guy's being a dick about it.
- deleted 3y ago
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chaorace 3y ago
I admire your pragmatism. I think it's quite neat how your chosen name reflects that aspect of your self, too.
bedobi 3y ago
My name is Fred. Oddly, despite being a not uncommon name in the English speaking world, English speakers never get it. They hear and call me Brett, Brad, Frank, Greg... anything but Fred. And it's not because I have a strong uncommon accent or anything, my accent is just a generic North American accent, most people think I'm Canadian. Like you I've also kind of given up and usually just roll with it. I do see where you're coming from re not getting offended but not sure I agree completely with that - I do think there's room for improvement or at least making an effort with unfamiliar names. (but demanding perfection is likewise rude)
dehrmann 3y ago
I have a common western given name, but pronunciation varies wildly across Europe (where the name's common) based on the language's phonetics. It's perfectly fine.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
> your pronoun if you didn't make it obvious by your attire This is still a minefield, especially among teenagers and very young adults who latch on to any opportunity to assert their individuality. I have met more than one man who wears female clothing and cosmetics and adopts female mannerisms, yet still insists that he is non-binary or a “non-binary male” and so his pronouns will be “he” or “they”, and you might get chewed out for using the wrong pronoun.
- kayodelycaon 3y ago
  Having dealt with this many times, it’s usually just easier to apologize and use their preferred pronouns/name. I tend to store that information in my contacts list. On the other side, I’ve had to deal with changing my assumed name and some people just insist on using my previous assumed name. (Most people know me as Kayodé, not my legal name.) A few people forget from time to time. I can only imagine what it’s like for people who change their legal name instead keeping it for convenience. Identity is a pain in the ass and it’s just not worth the argument.
- triceratops 3y ago
  You know they prefer non-binary pronouns and still referred to them with "he" and "his". Maybe you're a non-native English speaker, and struggle with gender and grammar. Or maybe they have a point. EDIT: I was wrong. See below.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    You’re rudely assuming an awful lot: 1) that it was me who referred to the person with an unwanted pronoun, as opposed to simply witnessing the person get upset by a third party doing so, and 2) that someone who insists on the identity of a non-binary male necessarily does not want to be referred to with the pronoun “he”. Pronoun preferences are just as diverse or contrary to others’ expectations as the labels that people apply to themselves.
    - paulddraper 3y ago
lazyasciiart 3y ago
My friend, in America, is named Alok. When he started school the teacher said “That’s not a name, in my class your name is Alex.” You know that not everyone is relating to you with good intentions, right? And that their convenience isn’t the most important thing in the world? How far does your magnanimity extend? Can people just say “hey you, shithead” and you think that shouldn’t affect the interaction?
- crossroadsguy 3y ago
  It was horrible of that teacher if it was not just an icebreaker sort of light-hearted remark. Though I might find it inappropriate nonetheless. Did Alok protest?
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    It was not an icebreaker, it was a racist asshole who was absolutely serious - he wasn't going to say some shitty foreign name, and he didn't, all year. As a 5yo? No, he did not protest. It wasn't an isolated incident anyway.
    - crossroadsguy 3y ago
      Oh. I didn’t take the “teacher” part seriously. I assumed it to he a professor. My bad.
- kortex 3y ago
  I think there is a huge difference between mapping over to easier phonetics/phonotactics or common names in the native language, and "hey shithead". The attitude isn't great, but Alok->Alex checks out. In Italy I'd be Michele, in Japan, I'd be Maikeru/マイケル, in Ukraine I'd probably be Mykhaylo/Михайло.
- cat_plus_plus 3y ago
  Why isn't other people's convenience the most important thing in the world? Utilitarian: there are many of them, there is only one of me. Egalitarian: I don't want to me inconvenienced by accepting an alternative pronunciation of my name, so I insist on THEM being inconvenienced? Self-interest: I have some business with them, the less distractions we have getting to it the sooner/better it will get done. I had plenty of experience with people intentionally calling me mean nicknames in my native language. There is zero overlap between this situation and someone who just wants to have a useful interaction.
crossroadsguy 3y ago
I don’t see any problem with what you choose to do. Neither do I see a problem with someone who would want their name to be pronounced correctly.
takinola 3y ago
As someone with a name that is hard (impossible?) for native English speakers to pronounce, I take the same pragmatic approach as you do with one caveat. I do not mind people mispronouncing or misspelling my name as long as they at least try. I answer to any of the common mispronunciations or misspellings but would bristle if someone decided to ignore my name altogether and decide to make up a name for me. My thinking is this is about respect and courtesy. I understand the linguistic limitations of living in a multicultural world but there is no similar limitation on our ability to try and meet other people at least some of the way.
VK538FY 3y ago
Nothing wrong with providing an approximate pronunciation of your name with sounds available in the local language. It's reasonable and respectful for the person opposite you to make an effort along those lines. It's unreasonable for him to learn new sounds! My girlfriend has a name that I still can't pronounce like in her language but I and others approximate and that's good enough. No one expects her to adopt a local name, no one.
michaelt 3y ago
> So I don't get the current trend where everyone is your majesty and god forbid someone mangles your name The advice that people react well if you pronounce their name correctly has been widespread since, at the very least, Dale Carnegie's 1936 "How to Win Friends and Influence People" so not really a recent trend. And of course in some situations other people's treatment of your name can have a major impact on your career - for example, if academics reference papers as "FamilyName et. al. (year)" it might benefit your career a great deal if they identify your family name correctly. I agree that widespread chosen pronouns are a recent trend, though.
- FalconSensei 3y ago
  > The advice that people react well if you pronounce their name correctly Yes, but it doesn't mean you have to keep forcing the person to try to pronounce your name perfectly when it includes sounds that their native language doesn't have.
- cat_plus_plus 3y ago
  Dale Carnegie's book is about professional success. OBVIOUSLY, if you are having a meeting with a VP about your project, it might be good to make sure you say his or her name correctly. Equally obviously, if a VP mispronounces your name, you don't make a stink and derail business side of conversation. If we are just talking about being nice well... exactly same considerations apply. Why burden other people when you can handle the problem yourself. At least for one off interactions, if you deal with someone regularly it's Ok to mention correct pronunciation a couple of times and not make it a huge deal if they find it challenging.
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monknomo 3y ago
I have a european name that is difficult to pronounce for americans (even me!), and I adopted the same approach. It's mildly annoying, because my name as pronounced by americans has a lot of connotations I don't necessarily love, but I know who folks mean coffee shops are impossible though. I have a coffee shop name, because they are even more wildly out of pocket with what they hear my name is than the median conversation
- FalconSensei 3y ago
  As a Brazilian living in Canada, a coffee shop name is a must have. I tried using my name, but then Ill have to spell it. And then they are going to mispronounce it when reading it, so I'm not gonna know it's me they are calling.
  - seoulbigchris 3y ago
    One time at a deli sandwich type of store, the way the clerk phrased the question caught my attention: “What name would you like us to call when your order is ready?” She didn’t ask for my name, rather what name should they call out. My kids were embarrassed when I replied “Harvey” (that’s not my name). About ten minutes later some friends walk into the place, see me, and come over to say hello. Just then, the clerk shouted “Harvey, your order is ready”. My friends were really baffled when I stood up and went to fetch it.
- musicale 3y ago
  Other coffee shops may be quieter, but I expect Starbucks workers might develop hearing damage from the blenders etc.
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aristus 3y ago
Few in US pronounce my name as it was originally, and I was born there. The final joke is when I moved to a country where it is pronounced right, people get confused because I don't have a matronym (slightly shameful not to) and my patronym (Bueno) sounds outright fake. I've learned to roll with it using a joke that my cousin has it worse because her last name is "Excuseme".
fnordpiglet 3y ago
My wife is from Thailand so I spend a lot of time in Thailand and with Thai people. My name is Robert which is difficult for Thai people to say. So I got by Bob with Thais despite never going by it in any other context. I don’t expect Thai people to be able to make sounds (R’s in particular) that aren’t commonly used in their language. (There is an R sound in Thai, but it has a roll, and is commonly pronounced as an L sound regardless) Likewise we don’t expect English speakers (or Chinese Spanish French German or any other language) to be able to say her Pali name. (In Thailand they use Pali, the dead language used in the Buddhist canon, for names) She also has a Thai language nickname as all Thais do, but it’s challenging and so she decided to adopt a simpler English name among native English speakers upon arrival. I think it’s laudable to try to pronounce names in every language across all of humanity with alacrity, but it’s unreasonable to expect everyone can and will. Certainly in my travels there’s a great deal less sensitivity to other languages and cultures than we seem to expect in the US and to some extent in parts of Europe. It’s an unreasonable standard. However in some contexts, particularly roles of trust and respect, you should always ask and try, and I think in general it’s a polite human thing to do. But any expectation of success and remembering is completely unreasonable. In the first case, the brain just isn’t adapted to the sounds no matter how much they respect you and your culture. The second case, it’s like memorizing random nonsense words - it’s not nonsense to you, but to the person who grew up in a totally different culture and language, it certainly is. That’s not disrespectful, that’s a simple fact of reality. IMO the disrespectful thing is to be upset with humans being human - the attempt is the act of respect - anything beyond that is a measure of some intellectual capability that not everyone has.
paulddraper 3y ago
I had a friend from Singapore whose name was Muk (pronounced muck). That confused everyone who were sure they heard him wrong, so he went by Mark instead. Seemed very sensible and made introductions easy.
mcmoor 3y ago
It's becoming kinda like a shibboleth to me. Most people can't spell my name and it's ok but if you can, you earn my favor.

earthboundkid 3y ago

It’s a little bit of a complicated issue. On the one hand, my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American. That’s a totally normal thing, and it’s weird to complain about it. In Japan, they were often confused about which of my names was personal and which was for my family, and they never quite figured out the deal with my middle name / initial. Cultures are different, and you can’t expect everyone in one country to know everything about another. On the other hand, some people make a big show out of not knowing how to pronounce common Indian names, and that strikes me as silly/microaggressive. Hindi is spelled phonetically in English, so it’s not very hard. On the third hand though, Chinese names are often spelled with a Romanization that wasn’t designed for use by English speakers, so of course they can’t do it. If you want them to not mangle your name, use the Yale Romanization. I think people want there to be a simple answer like “everyone just change your name to John Smith” or “if they can’t pronounce Xi Jinping, they’re racists” but simple answers don’t really apply. We’re all just going to muddle through the best we can.

kibwen 3y ago
> my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American I'd be interested to hear the story there. When it comes to surnames, AFAIK nearly every US state lets you put basically any arbitrary assembly of English characters as the last name for a child, with even fewer restrictions on the last names for adults.
- deleted 3y ago
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- wrsh07 3y ago
  Ah but at immigration you may have been expected to spell your name and were sort of at the whim of the official (who was helping intake many people) Lots of reasons you might not have your official name written or heard correctly
- ssklash 3y ago
  I would assume the reason is not a legal one, but a cultural one, i.e. having a very obviously foreign name a few generations ago in the US might make you a target of discrimination. Changing something like "Alexei" to "Alex" would help you stand out less.
- earthboundkid 3y ago
  My great grandfather emigrated as a young person and started using his father's patronym as his own last name instead of continuing to use his father's first name as his patronym. He could have kept the patronym tradition alive, but why? He was in America now, and once his kids were born, they mostly spoke English anyway.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English This isn’t the case. I have a formal background in linguistics and have a vague familiarity with the Indic branch of the Indo-European languages in general, and I still occasionally screw up in pronouncing Hindi (or other Indian languages’) words that are written in informal Latin transliteration. Most notably, whether the sound written <a> denotes [ə] or [aː] is often ambiguous.
- earthboundkid 3y ago
  It's not ambiguous if the macrons are included, but yes, in everyday texts, the macrons are often dropped.
RandallBrown 3y ago
> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English, so it’s not very hard. In my experience it's extremely hard to get right. At one of my jobs pronunciation of Indian words (mostly food and names) was a fairly common topic of conversation and it was impossible for the non-Indians to get correct. To my American ear it usually sounded exactly the same (even if it wasn't me saying it) but they would always say it wasn't quite right.
- zffr 3y ago
  The reason for this is probably that Hindi has a few extra sounds that just don’t exist in English. For many consonants Hindi has 2 versions (aspirated and non-aspirated). It also has several different kinds of “d” sounds instead of just 1
- sbehere 3y ago
  I think certain sounds are hard for Western speakers to pronounce, while others are easy. Specifically, Hindi (and many other Sanskrit-derived languages) distinguish between some sounds (which have correspondingly different characters in the written script) that are often indistinguishable to Western ears. And if you can't hear the difference, you are unlikely to be able to say it right. These sounds typically come in groups of four. For example, there are 4 "T" sounds in Hindi: त थ ट ठ. If you pronounce each of these correctly, Indian ears will hear 4 distinct sounds. Western ears will typically hear the same sound 4 times. If they are listening attentively the second time around, they may be able to distinguish at most 2 different sounds, but not 4. Given this, Western speakers are unlikely to correctly pronounce a word containing one of these sounds. The good news is that even if a Western speaker has incorrect pronunciation, in the vast majority of cases native Hindi speakers would be able to understand what was meant.. so the communication still happens effectively. Furthermore, regardless of language, I like to believe that most native speakers will very much appreciate efforts to speak the language, no matter how mangled the pronunciation is.
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    > For example, there are 4 "T" sounds in Hindi: त थ ट ठ. Out of curiosity, are these distinguished as alveolar vs retroflex and aspirated vs non-aspirated?
javier_e06 3y ago
I agree on the "death by thousand cuts that people with foreign names experience in the US" It reminds me of the meme that reads: "You speak English because is the only language you know. I speak English because is the only language you know. We are not the same". Why Starubucks insist on asking for my name just to mangle it in the cup for posterity?
- kergonath 3y ago
  > Why Starubucks insist on asking for my name just to mangle it in the cup for posterity? I have an English nickname just for when I go to Starbucks abroad. It's much easier that way.
- earthboundkid 3y ago
  My name is a totally bog standard American name and Starbucks or whoever cannot get it right if I just say it. I have internalized this now so I always say my name followed by spelling it (fortunately, it's very short). I think it's an important bit of context that even if your name is something like "Karen" or whatever, they will mishear it and misspell it as "Cathrine". It's not a unique microaggression imposed on people with names that are uncommon in the US.
  - rigrassm 3y ago
    Seconding this experience. My first name is "Ricky" and I very frequently have to correct people (mainly in drive throughs and over the phone) who repeat back to me "Britney" or "Nicky". Very possible I just suck at enunciating my name and no one has had the heart to tell me all these years.
kergonath 3y ago
> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English Reading English phonetically is highly non-trivial. Each vowel can be pronounced different ways depending on factors that are not always easy to understand, particularly for non-native speakers. Same for a lot of consonants. I have no clue which accent I am supposed to have when reading romanised Hindi. East coast American? Estuary English? British RP? Australian? That could be 4 different ways of pronouncing the letter "A". Hell, I am not even sure all Hindi speakers would agree on the pronunciation of a random word because of differing accents. > On the third hand though, Chinese names are often spelled with a Romanization that wasn’t designed for use by English speakers, so of course they can’t do it. If you want them to not mangle your name, use the Yale Romanization. You cannot expect people to know of any specific romanisation scheme. There are different ones, used by different people and in different contexts, and that are often at odds with the spelling of well known names (like famous people or cities). What's hilarious is people in a non-English speaking country, e.g. Germany or France, using the same romanisation as in English because it's "the correct way" and then getting the phonetics completely wrong. > I think people want there to be a simple answer like “everyone just change your name to John Smith” or “if they can’t pronounce Xi Jinping, they’re racists” but simple answers don’t really apply. We’re all just going to muddle through the best we can. Exactly. Ideally, it's best effort on both sides: don't be a dick if they pronounce your name wrong a couple of times and hopefully they won't be idiots either and at least try. As a non-native English speaker who's spent quite a few years in English-speaking countries, sometimes you roll your eyes and sometimes it's funny, but it is rarely worth fighting about pronunciation issues.
paulddraper 3y ago
> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English Bold of you to say it's possible to "spell phonetically in English"
- anotheruser13 3y ago
  The Japanese language enters and says, "Hold my beer."
  - earthboundkid 3y ago
    I think the Japanese have a good system internally. They convert foreign sounds into sounds that work in their language. Of course, this bites them in the ass when they try to actually speak a foreign language, but as long as you're speaking Japanese with some foreign words mixed in, it's fine and the system works.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

It's a "pick your battles" kinda thing, you're not gonna get someone at Starbucks write your name down properly if it isn't something they can easily hear over the murmur of a crowd. That said, if I were in that situation I would double down on it in anything formal - documents, graduation ceremonies, weddings, lawsuits, etc.

dehrmann 3y ago
I have a coworker named Domas. It's pronounceable enough, but he uses Thomas (which is actually just a variation of the same name in some cultures) as his Starbucks name for...reasons.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  That's pretty funny.

EatingWithForks 3y ago

I agree to some extent. There's definitely weirdos that purposefully use names and pronoun mangling to antagonize or ostracize someone, or put in literally no effort to respect someone. I've definitely heard/seen "your name's too hard, I'll just call you $some_arbitrary_name" like an adopted animal or something and that always struck me as a dick move.

jjoonathan 3y ago
Yes, though the opposite also happens: people spend time struggling over your name when you don't want to be a language tutor.
- EatingWithForks 3y ago
  Yes I also think that's weirdo behavior. I'm just pointing out there may very well be a reason why someone may be insisting on pronoun/name correctness-- if the other guy's being a dick about it.
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chaorace 3y ago

I admire your pragmatism. I think it's quite neat how your chosen name reflects that aspect of your self, too.

bedobi 3y ago

My name is Fred. Oddly, despite being a not uncommon name in the English speaking world, English speakers never get it. They hear and call me Brett, Brad, Frank, Greg... anything but Fred. And it's not because I have a strong uncommon accent or anything, my accent is just a generic North American accent, most people think I'm Canadian. Like you I've also kind of given up and usually just roll with it. I do see where you're coming from re not getting offended but not sure I agree completely with that - I do think there's room for improvement or at least making an effort with unfamiliar names. (but demanding perfection is likewise rude)

dehrmann 3y ago

I have a common western given name, but pronunciation varies wildly across Europe (where the name's common) based on the language's phonetics. It's perfectly fine.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

> your pronoun if you didn't make it obvious by your attire This is still a minefield, especially among teenagers and very young adults who latch on to any opportunity to assert their individuality. I have met more than one man who wears female clothing and cosmetics and adopts female mannerisms, yet still insists that he is non-binary or a “non-binary male” and so his pronouns will be “he” or “they”, and you might get chewed out for using the wrong pronoun.

kayodelycaon 3y ago
Having dealt with this many times, it’s usually just easier to apologize and use their preferred pronouns/name. I tend to store that information in my contacts list. On the other side, I’ve had to deal with changing my assumed name and some people just insist on using my previous assumed name. (Most people know me as Kayodé, not my legal name.) A few people forget from time to time. I can only imagine what it’s like for people who change their legal name instead keeping it for convenience. Identity is a pain in the ass and it’s just not worth the argument.
triceratops 3y ago
You know they prefer non-binary pronouns and still referred to them with "he" and "his". Maybe you're a non-native English speaker, and struggle with gender and grammar. Or maybe they have a point. EDIT: I was wrong. See below.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  You’re rudely assuming an awful lot: 1) that it was me who referred to the person with an unwanted pronoun, as opposed to simply witnessing the person get upset by a third party doing so, and 2) that someone who insists on the identity of a non-binary male necessarily does not want to be referred to with the pronoun “he”. Pronoun preferences are just as diverse or contrary to others’ expectations as the labels that people apply to themselves.
  - paulddraper 3y ago

lazyasciiart 3y ago

My friend, in America, is named Alok. When he started school the teacher said “That’s not a name, in my class your name is Alex.” You know that not everyone is relating to you with good intentions, right? And that their convenience isn’t the most important thing in the world? How far does your magnanimity extend? Can people just say “hey you, shithead” and you think that shouldn’t affect the interaction?

crossroadsguy 3y ago
It was horrible of that teacher if it was not just an icebreaker sort of light-hearted remark. Though I might find it inappropriate nonetheless. Did Alok protest?
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  It was not an icebreaker, it was a racist asshole who was absolutely serious - he wasn't going to say some shitty foreign name, and he didn't, all year. As a 5yo? No, he did not protest. It wasn't an isolated incident anyway.
  - crossroadsguy 3y ago
    Oh. I didn’t take the “teacher” part seriously. I assumed it to he a professor. My bad.
kortex 3y ago
I think there is a huge difference between mapping over to easier phonetics/phonotactics or common names in the native language, and "hey shithead". The attitude isn't great, but Alok->Alex checks out. In Italy I'd be Michele, in Japan, I'd be Maikeru/マイケル, in Ukraine I'd probably be Mykhaylo/Михайло.
cat_plus_plus 3y ago
Why isn't other people's convenience the most important thing in the world? Utilitarian: there are many of them, there is only one of me. Egalitarian: I don't want to me inconvenienced by accepting an alternative pronunciation of my name, so I insist on THEM being inconvenienced? Self-interest: I have some business with them, the less distractions we have getting to it the sooner/better it will get done. I had plenty of experience with people intentionally calling me mean nicknames in my native language. There is zero overlap between this situation and someone who just wants to have a useful interaction.

crossroadsguy 3y ago

I don’t see any problem with what you choose to do. Neither do I see a problem with someone who would want their name to be pronounced correctly.

takinola 3y ago

As someone with a name that is hard (impossible?) for native English speakers to pronounce, I take the same pragmatic approach as you do with one caveat. I do not mind people mispronouncing or misspelling my name as long as they at least try. I answer to any of the common mispronunciations or misspellings but would bristle if someone decided to ignore my name altogether and decide to make up a name for me. My thinking is this is about respect and courtesy. I understand the linguistic limitations of living in a multicultural world but there is no similar limitation on our ability to try and meet other people at least some of the way.

VK538FY 3y ago

Nothing wrong with providing an approximate pronunciation of your name with sounds available in the local language. It's reasonable and respectful for the person opposite you to make an effort along those lines. It's unreasonable for him to learn new sounds! My girlfriend has a name that I still can't pronounce like in her language but I and others approximate and that's good enough. No one expects her to adopt a local name, no one.

michaelt 3y ago

> So I don't get the current trend where everyone is your majesty and god forbid someone mangles your name The advice that people react well if you pronounce their name correctly has been widespread since, at the very least, Dale Carnegie's 1936 "How to Win Friends and Influence People" so not really a recent trend. And of course in some situations other people's treatment of your name can have a major impact on your career - for example, if academics reference papers as "FamilyName et. al. (year)" it might benefit your career a great deal if they identify your family name correctly. I agree that widespread chosen pronouns are a recent trend, though.

FalconSensei 3y ago
> The advice that people react well if you pronounce their name correctly Yes, but it doesn't mean you have to keep forcing the person to try to pronounce your name perfectly when it includes sounds that their native language doesn't have.
cat_plus_plus 3y ago
Dale Carnegie's book is about professional success. OBVIOUSLY, if you are having a meeting with a VP about your project, it might be good to make sure you say his or her name correctly. Equally obviously, if a VP mispronounces your name, you don't make a stink and derail business side of conversation. If we are just talking about being nice well... exactly same considerations apply. Why burden other people when you can handle the problem yourself. At least for one off interactions, if you deal with someone regularly it's Ok to mention correct pronunciation a couple of times and not make it a huge deal if they find it challenging.

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monknomo 3y ago

I have a european name that is difficult to pronounce for americans (even me!), and I adopted the same approach. It's mildly annoying, because my name as pronounced by americans has a lot of connotations I don't necessarily love, but I know who folks mean coffee shops are impossible though. I have a coffee shop name, because they are even more wildly out of pocket with what they hear my name is than the median conversation

FalconSensei 3y ago
As a Brazilian living in Canada, a coffee shop name is a must have. I tried using my name, but then Ill have to spell it. And then they are going to mispronounce it when reading it, so I'm not gonna know it's me they are calling.
- seoulbigchris 3y ago
  One time at a deli sandwich type of store, the way the clerk phrased the question caught my attention: “What name would you like us to call when your order is ready?” She didn’t ask for my name, rather what name should they call out. My kids were embarrassed when I replied “Harvey” (that’s not my name). About ten minutes later some friends walk into the place, see me, and come over to say hello. Just then, the clerk shouted “Harvey, your order is ready”. My friends were really baffled when I stood up and went to fetch it.
musicale 3y ago
Other coffee shops may be quieter, but I expect Starbucks workers might develop hearing damage from the blenders etc.

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aristus 3y ago

Few in US pronounce my name as it was originally, and I was born there. The final joke is when I moved to a country where it is pronounced right, people get confused because I don't have a matronym (slightly shameful not to) and my patronym (Bueno) sounds outright fake. I've learned to roll with it using a joke that my cousin has it worse because her last name is "Excuseme".

fnordpiglet 3y ago

My wife is from Thailand so I spend a lot of time in Thailand and with Thai people. My name is Robert which is difficult for Thai people to say. So I got by Bob with Thais despite never going by it in any other context. I don’t expect Thai people to be able to make sounds (R’s in particular) that aren’t commonly used in their language. (There is an R sound in Thai, but it has a roll, and is commonly pronounced as an L sound regardless) Likewise we don’t expect English speakers (or Chinese Spanish French German or any other language) to be able to say her Pali name. (In Thailand they use Pali, the dead language used in the Buddhist canon, for names) She also has a Thai language nickname as all Thais do, but it’s challenging and so she decided to adopt a simpler English name among native English speakers upon arrival. I think it’s laudable to try to pronounce names in every language across all of humanity with alacrity, but it’s unreasonable to expect everyone can and will. Certainly in my travels there’s a great deal less sensitivity to other languages and cultures than we seem to expect in the US and to some extent in parts of Europe. It’s an unreasonable standard. However in some contexts, particularly roles of trust and respect, you should always ask and try, and I think in general it’s a polite human thing to do. But any expectation of success and remembering is completely unreasonable. In the first case, the brain just isn’t adapted to the sounds no matter how much they respect you and your culture. The second case, it’s like memorizing random nonsense words - it’s not nonsense to you, but to the person who grew up in a totally different culture and language, it certainly is. That’s not disrespectful, that’s a simple fact of reality. IMO the disrespectful thing is to be upset with humans being human - the attempt is the act of respect - anything beyond that is a measure of some intellectual capability that not everyone has.

paulddraper 3y ago

I had a friend from Singapore whose name was Muk (pronounced muck). That confused everyone who were sure they heard him wrong, so he went by Mark instead. Seemed very sensible and made introductions easy.

mcmoor 3y ago

It's becoming kinda like a shibboleth to me. Most people can't spell my name and it's ok but if you can, you earn my favor.