7 ms·

Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled resea

by nvm0n2 3y ago

Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled research (and other such schemes)" and the counter-argument was "no, collaboration makes sense regardless and better deals can eventually be reached". So the Leavers were right about that in the end. Horizon isn't important compared to constitutional issues, but this is one more argument that just didn't turn out right.

benj111 3y ago
>no, collaboration makes sense regardless The EU is one big collaborative project. I'm pro EU for this very reason, so surely the leavers argument has to be 'some, but not too much collaboration makes sense'. Of course that assumes a coherent argument from brexiteers...
- archsurface 3y ago
  All or nothing?
  - benj111 3y ago
    Would you like to expand?
swores 3y ago
Is there an example area where the UK actually is in a better situation thanks to Brexit, or has agreed a deal with anyone that's better than the previous situation? Taking this Horizon story as an example, the fact that we've rejoined shows that EU membership isn't necessary for it, but it still has "years out of the deal" as a negative for Brexit and I don't think any improvement to count as a positive?
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  I mean the big selling point is flexibility in regulation. The trouble is that using that flexibility would be bad for exporters so it's pretty tricky to use effectively.
  - IntelMiner 3y ago
    I seem to recall the latter being expected, that the UK would drop regulations on imports, leading to low-quality American foodstuffs (corn syrup) flooding the market
    - mcintyre1994 3y ago
      I'm not convinced that's actually seen as a benefit by any government either though, because it'd be bad for UK companies that sell here and also export - which is what you want really. Those companies can't lower their standards to compete with lower quality imports without losing their export business.
      - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
        The outcomes have already penalised exporters relative to importers. Exporting to the EU is hard: lots of standards checks. Importing from the EU is easy: whole categories of imports are left unchecked, because new rules aren't being enforced as a matter of policy, which is the only way we have food security, for example.
      - tomatocracy 3y ago
        Protectionism often seems politically appealing because its beneficiaries are highly visible and benefits are concentrated amongst a few larger firms. The beneficiaries of cheaper imports and freer trade are usually greater in total but thinly spread out - everyone benefits a little bit. As such it wouldn't surprise me at all if both your perspective and GP's perspective are true - cheaper imports would be better for everyone but the government doesn't "want" them because they'd politically inconvenience a relatively small number of people very visibly.
    - Symbiote 3y ago
      A Facebook ad caught my eye recently, as it was a British newspaper's "Least healthy breakfast cereal" and the picture was something I didn't recognize at all. I was then surprised to see American cereal is now sold in the UK, and it's packed with the colourings and additives British parents in the 1990s would have refused to have in the house. Pre-Brexit, "No artificial colours or flavours" could be pretty much assumed for all cereal sold in Britain, even the colourful, sugary ones. That's no longer the case. Example: https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/282819954 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/282819954 Contains Tartrazine (E102)*, Sunset Yellow (E110)*, Brilliant Blue (E133), Allura Red (E129)* E102 — in the EU, not allowed in cereal E110 — allowed, although the UK government previously asked manufacturers to stop using this E133 — not easily determined from Wikipedia, although there's an example of British manufacturers stopping its use in the 2000s. E129 — allowed I think.
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago
  > Is there an example area where the UK actually is in a better situation thanks to Brexit, or has agreed a deal with anyone that's better than the previous situation? No. The most you could claim is that we were a few weeks earlier with a vaccine than the rest of Europe, but then we'd have been developing our vaccine within an EU framework if we'd been in, so who knows what additional benefits that would have brought.
- archsurface 3y ago
  Pros and cons, you can't look just at this example. Also, a project as big as Brexit takes many years to play out; the transition has barely begun, the conversation is futile at this point, and will be for years.
  - t43562 3y ago
    That's how people sold communism.
bemusedthrow75 3y ago
> So the Leavers were right about that in the end. We rejoined the exact same framework we were already a member of and this is a score counted in Leave's column? This is wild logic.
- archsurface 3y ago
  It would be if by choice rather than mandate.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  Rejoining the exact same framework would mean rejoining the EU, wouldn't it? Horizon isn't the whole shebang and was never the parts that people had problems with. It's really not hard to understand this, unless you're trying not to!
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    This is a weird, lazy, bad-faith mischaracterisation of what I said. Horizon is a framework. We rejoined it. End of argument.
    - nvm0n2 3y ago
      Same back to you! You're totally misrepresenting what this is all about. It's extremely clear what's meant here: the EU is a big thing with problematic parts, and parts that are OK. Horizon is OK and uncontroversial. The UK wanted the useful low risk collaborations without the dangerous lets-unify-Europe-into-a-megastate parts, and that is what is now happening. The Leavers said this could be done, the Remainers said it was all or nothing, the Leavers are being steadily proven correct.
      - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
        > the Leavers are being steadily proven correct. Now this is delusional. The "prime Leaver", Nigel Farage, thinks Brexit has failed and has said so. The press is full of Leavers saying the country is broken right now.

by nvm0n2 3y ago

benj111 3y ago

>no, collaboration makes sense regardless The EU is one big collaborative project. I'm pro EU for this very reason, so surely the leavers argument has to be 'some, but not too much collaboration makes sense'. Of course that assumes a coherent argument from brexiteers...

archsurface 3y ago
All or nothing?
- benj111 3y ago
  Would you like to expand?

swores 3y ago

Is there an example area where the UK actually is in a better situation thanks to Brexit, or has agreed a deal with anyone that's better than the previous situation? Taking this Horizon story as an example, the fact that we've rejoined shows that EU membership isn't necessary for it, but it still has "years out of the deal" as a negative for Brexit and I don't think any improvement to count as a positive?

disgruntledphd2 3y ago
I mean the big selling point is flexibility in regulation. The trouble is that using that flexibility would be bad for exporters so it's pretty tricky to use effectively.
- IntelMiner 3y ago
  I seem to recall the latter being expected, that the UK would drop regulations on imports, leading to low-quality American foodstuffs (corn syrup) flooding the market
  - mcintyre1994 3y ago
    I'm not convinced that's actually seen as a benefit by any government either though, because it'd be bad for UK companies that sell here and also export - which is what you want really. Those companies can't lower their standards to compete with lower quality imports without losing their export business.
    - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
      The outcomes have already penalised exporters relative to importers. Exporting to the EU is hard: lots of standards checks. Importing from the EU is easy: whole categories of imports are left unchecked, because new rules aren't being enforced as a matter of policy, which is the only way we have food security, for example.
    - tomatocracy 3y ago
      Protectionism often seems politically appealing because its beneficiaries are highly visible and benefits are concentrated amongst a few larger firms. The beneficiaries of cheaper imports and freer trade are usually greater in total but thinly spread out - everyone benefits a little bit. As such it wouldn't surprise me at all if both your perspective and GP's perspective are true - cheaper imports would be better for everyone but the government doesn't "want" them because they'd politically inconvenience a relatively small number of people very visibly.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    A Facebook ad caught my eye recently, as it was a British newspaper's "Least healthy breakfast cereal" and the picture was something I didn't recognize at all. I was then surprised to see American cereal is now sold in the UK, and it's packed with the colourings and additives British parents in the 1990s would have refused to have in the house. Pre-Brexit, "No artificial colours or flavours" could be pretty much assumed for all cereal sold in Britain, even the colourful, sugary ones. That's no longer the case. Example: https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/282819954 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/282819954 Contains Tartrazine (E102)*, Sunset Yellow (E110)*, Brilliant Blue (E133), Allura Red (E129)* E102 — in the EU, not allowed in cereal E110 — allowed, although the UK government previously asked manufacturers to stop using this E133 — not easily determined from Wikipedia, although there's an example of British manufacturers stopping its use in the 2000s. E129 — allowed I think.
bemusedthrow75 3y ago
> Is there an example area where the UK actually is in a better situation thanks to Brexit, or has agreed a deal with anyone that's better than the previous situation? No. The most you could claim is that we were a few weeks earlier with a vaccine than the rest of Europe, but then we'd have been developing our vaccine within an EU framework if we'd been in, so who knows what additional benefits that would have brought.
archsurface 3y ago
Pros and cons, you can't look just at this example. Also, a project as big as Brexit takes many years to play out; the transition has barely begun, the conversation is futile at this point, and will be for years.
- t43562 3y ago
  That's how people sold communism.

bemusedthrow75 3y ago

> So the Leavers were right about that in the end. We rejoined the exact same framework we were already a member of and this is a score counted in Leave's column? This is wild logic.

archsurface 3y ago
It would be if by choice rather than mandate.
nvm0n2 3y ago
Rejoining the exact same framework would mean rejoining the EU, wouldn't it? Horizon isn't the whole shebang and was never the parts that people had problems with. It's really not hard to understand this, unless you're trying not to!
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago
  This is a weird, lazy, bad-faith mischaracterisation of what I said. Horizon is a framework. We rejoined it. End of argument.
  - nvm0n2 3y ago
    Same back to you! You're totally misrepresenting what this is all about. It's extremely clear what's meant here: the EU is a big thing with problematic parts, and parts that are OK. Horizon is OK and uncontroversial. The UK wanted the useful low risk collaborations without the dangerous lets-unify-Europe-into-a-megastate parts, and that is what is now happening. The Leavers said this could be done, the Remainers said it was all or nothing, the Leavers are being steadily proven correct.
    - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
      > the Leavers are being steadily proven correct. Now this is delusional. The "prime Leaver", Nigel Farage, thinks Brexit has failed and has said so. The press is full of Leavers saying the country is broken right now.