5 ms·

It's exactly what I'm wondering. The deal seems to stipulate that on average you'd spend about as much as you receive. If so, why not spend the same amount of m

It's exactly what I'm wondering. The deal seems to stipulate that on average you'd spend about as much as you receive. If so, why not spend the same amount of money on your own scientist? That way you have full control. I don't get what the UK gets out of it. For the EU I can understand, a larger budget means more science done, means more results. Who cares if some of it happens in the UK, since we are getting paid for it anyhow.

linuskendall 3y ago
UK researchers can participate in larger Horizon projects if UK is a Horizon members. Much more easy to have joint research projects if the budget can be shared across the project, rather than split up with research outcomes/outputs having to be accounted for across UK/Horizon boundaries. In reality many UK institutions that were part of Horizon projects simply left them or didn't join as partners on applications.
kramerger 3y ago
Because research projects are multinational collaborations. How do you get your brightest to stay in UK (or come here from other places) if all your research are isolated to your island??
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  They are isolated because that scheme is designed to isolate non-members. But nothing prevents the UK from being part of international collaborations in general.
  - kramerger 3y ago
    No, the scheme is there to simplify collaboration across borders and connect research teams with very different skills. While you can still do it outside the EU programs, it will require a lot of administrative work which most universities cannot handle.
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      If being part of the scheme suddenly makes everything possible then I'd say the system is indeed designed to make things difficult for those not part of the scheme... Let's not kid ourselves, this is geopolitics and influence, not just generous cooperation. Edit: Very strange to observe the reactions to my comment... many of you seem have a knee-jerk, black and white, if not naive, reaction to Brexit and the EU. Both sides are playing games and both sides are trying to further their interests, including indeed geopolitical and international influence ones. I am not claiming more than that and not passing judgement on Brexit here.
      - RandomLensman 3y ago
        Like an club, things for members are different than for non-members. Having a common and agree set of rules makes it easier for the members and more difficult for non-members. I would take issue with the notion of the EU having any geopolitical capabilities, though.
        mytailorisrich 3y ago
        The EU is a geopolitical entity with geopolitical aims. that has always been the case. You don't disagree with my point re. 'club rules'...
        RandomLensman 3y ago
        No disagreement on rules, but I don't see that as particular exclusionary in the sense that whenever people cooperate they do that under some set of rules anyway. EU might have geopolitical aims, but not much capability, so I see Horizon as not very strong in that area, if at all.
        fundatus 3y ago
        > EU might have geopolitical aims, but not much capability, so I see Horizon as not very strong in that area, if at all. The EU has quite some capacity to project power worldwide. Especially when it comes to trade and regulation. Surely not like the US or China, since it doesn't have it's own military. But much more than any of it's member states alone or other mid-sized countries like the UK.
  - PedroBatista 3y ago
    The scheme is designed to help members, the scheme doesn't care about non-members just like you don't care about non-customers or people you don't know exist.
  - jll29 3y ago
    This is like saying the local tennis club is "designed to isolate non-members"; no, anyone can apply.
rsynnott 3y ago
LOCAL science for LOCAL people. (It's a shame that Gove has largely dropped out of front-line Brexit advocacy; he looked the part).
jarvist 3y ago
Why would you want control? That means more bureaucracy you need to do yourself. In the UK (and I believe everywhere with a well functioning research culture), the 'Haldane principle' means that research funding is decided by researchers (not politicians / the civil service). https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmdius/168/16807.htm https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmdi... Funding UK science via the ERC, means you are making use of the network effects for peer review & processes. So the individual funding applications are being reviewed to a higher standard, and better decisions are made about what science to fund.
- nvm0n2 3y ago
  What the ERC does is controlled by the Commission like everything else in Europe, it's not independent regardless of what it claims. The people making the decisions on what to fund are directly selected by the Commission itself. So the EU's institutional agenda is indivisible from what gets funded via the ERC. That's why they fund stuff like research into disinformation, which the EU defines as more or less anything that goes against its own narratives or agendas, or cultural stereotyping: https://erc.europa.eu/projects-statistics/stories/why-people-share-disinformation https://erc.europa.eu/projects-statistics/stories/why-people... https://www.adinaakbik.eu/projects/2702-eurotypes https://www.adinaakbik.eu/projects/2702-eurotypes Cultural stereotypes are often present in the political and media discourse on European Union (EU) governance: e.g., the lazy Greeks, the tax-dodging Italians, the stingy Dutch, and so forth. Especially when stereotypes are negative, they create conflict between national governments, fuel Euroscepticism among voters, and can lead to the discrimination of citizens or Member States. To address this gap, EUROTYPES sets out to investigate how cultural stereotypes impact cooperation and effectiveness in contemporary EU governance.

linuskendall 3y ago

UK researchers can participate in larger Horizon projects if UK is a Horizon members. Much more easy to have joint research projects if the budget can be shared across the project, rather than split up with research outcomes/outputs having to be accounted for across UK/Horizon boundaries. In reality many UK institutions that were part of Horizon projects simply left them or didn't join as partners on applications.

kramerger 3y ago

Because research projects are multinational collaborations. How do you get your brightest to stay in UK (or come here from other places) if all your research are isolated to your island??

mytailorisrich 3y ago
They are isolated because that scheme is designed to isolate non-members. But nothing prevents the UK from being part of international collaborations in general.
- kramerger 3y ago
  No, the scheme is there to simplify collaboration across borders and connect research teams with very different skills. While you can still do it outside the EU programs, it will require a lot of administrative work which most universities cannot handle.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    If being part of the scheme suddenly makes everything possible then I'd say the system is indeed designed to make things difficult for those not part of the scheme... Let's not kid ourselves, this is geopolitics and influence, not just generous cooperation. Edit: Very strange to observe the reactions to my comment... many of you seem have a knee-jerk, black and white, if not naive, reaction to Brexit and the EU. Both sides are playing games and both sides are trying to further their interests, including indeed geopolitical and international influence ones. I am not claiming more than that and not passing judgement on Brexit here.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      Like an club, things for members are different than for non-members. Having a common and agree set of rules makes it easier for the members and more difficult for non-members. I would take issue with the notion of the EU having any geopolitical capabilities, though.
      - mytailorisrich 3y ago
        The EU is a geopolitical entity with geopolitical aims. that has always been the case. You don't disagree with my point re. 'club rules'...
        RandomLensman 3y ago
        No disagreement on rules, but I don't see that as particular exclusionary in the sense that whenever people cooperate they do that under some set of rules anyway. EU might have geopolitical aims, but not much capability, so I see Horizon as not very strong in that area, if at all.
        fundatus 3y ago
        > EU might have geopolitical aims, but not much capability, so I see Horizon as not very strong in that area, if at all. The EU has quite some capacity to project power worldwide. Especially when it comes to trade and regulation. Surely not like the US or China, since it doesn't have it's own military. But much more than any of it's member states alone or other mid-sized countries like the UK.
- PedroBatista 3y ago
  The scheme is designed to help members, the scheme doesn't care about non-members just like you don't care about non-customers or people you don't know exist.
- jll29 3y ago
  This is like saying the local tennis club is "designed to isolate non-members"; no, anyone can apply.

rsynnott 3y ago

LOCAL science for LOCAL people. (It's a shame that Gove has largely dropped out of front-line Brexit advocacy; he looked the part).

jarvist 3y ago

Why would you want control? That means more bureaucracy you need to do yourself. In the UK (and I believe everywhere with a well functioning research culture), the 'Haldane principle' means that research funding is decided by researchers (not politicians / the civil service). https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmdius/168/16807.htm https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmdi... Funding UK science via the ERC, means you are making use of the network effects for peer review & processes. So the individual funding applications are being reviewed to a higher standard, and better decisions are made about what science to fund.

nvm0n2 3y ago
What the ERC does is controlled by the Commission like everything else in Europe, it's not independent regardless of what it claims. The people making the decisions on what to fund are directly selected by the Commission itself. So the EU's institutional agenda is indivisible from what gets funded via the ERC. That's why they fund stuff like research into disinformation, which the EU defines as more or less anything that goes against its own narratives or agendas, or cultural stereotyping: https://erc.europa.eu/projects-statistics/stories/why-people-share-disinformation https://erc.europa.eu/projects-statistics/stories/why-people... https://www.adinaakbik.eu/projects/2702-eurotypes https://www.adinaakbik.eu/projects/2702-eurotypes Cultural stereotypes are often present in the political and media discourse on European Union (EU) governance: e.g., the lazy Greeks, the tax-dodging Italians, the stingy Dutch, and so forth. Especially when stereotypes are negative, they create conflict between national governments, fuel Euroscepticism among voters, and can lead to the discrimination of citizens or Member States. To address this gap, EUROTYPES sets out to investigate how cultural stereotypes impact cooperation and effectiveness in contemporary EU governance.