4 ms·

I rarely find a CoC to be "woke", and it would be helpful if you can provide cover concrete examples. What I see in big products is mostly "Don't attack others,

by d3w4s9 3y ago

I rarely find a CoC to be "woke", and it would be helpful if you can provide cover concrete examples. What I see in big products is mostly "Don't attack others, don't tell dirty jokes, no harassment of any kind" which I find neutral and fair.

Traubenfuchs 3y ago
> don't tell dirty jokes That alone is annoying and limiting. Constantly having to filter and mince your words to comply with this slows down thinking and reduces creativity. Remember dongle-gate? People should be allowed to joke about dongles all they want.
- chomp 3y ago
  These aren’t social clubs, they’re organizations of humans dedicated to building software. Telling jokes in e.g. an issue task or a project mailing list wastes everyone’s time. And why would you be having to filter in the first place?
  - Traubenfuchs 3y ago
    The motivation for this whole thread is the social club, the community aspect of a software project.
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    FOSS software projects are social clubs. They're endeavors undertaken willfully, voluntarily, usually without any expectation of financial compensation, out of personal interest. They have a goal, yes, but at the end of the day people get involved because it's fun, and they're trying to have fun and do something they think is cool. Telling someone they can't share a winkyface in chat is offputting to I'd say most talented people that do this sort of thing out of personal interest. I don't think it's a coincidence that we see alongside this rise on CoCs a rise of frustratingly hostile user experience in software.
- d3w4s9 3y ago
  I don't know how such a simple thing can be "annoying". Do you tell dirty jokes with colleagues when you have lunch in the cafeteria? If not, how is it difficult (not) to do the same thing online? That seems a very low bar. I am a male and I am not some sort of saint that never watches porn or never has dirty thoughts in my private life, but this (dirty jokes) isn't something I would complain about. btw I noticed that many women really don't like dirty jokes, like, disgusted by them. This can be a real turnoff for inclusivity -- imagine a woman interested in contributing to the project but decides not to participate because of issues like this.
- boscovn 3y ago
  Why did you bring up dongles? I thought we were discussing CoCs
subjectsigma 3y ago
There are plenty of CoCs which explicitly advocate for ideas from Critical Race Theory such as “anti-meritocracy” (meritocracy discriminates against the historically disadvantaged) and “anti-racism” (you have to be discriminatory to fight discrimination). I’m on mobile so my Google-fu is a little weak. All I can leave you with is the (unsatisfactory) anecdote that people have expoused these ideas to me in real life, saying things like “If you don’t have enough PoC contributing to your FLOSS project, you need to go and invite some regardless of if they are good contributors or not”
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  > There are plenty of CoCs Examples, please.
  - eclipseo76 3y ago
    https://floss.social/about https://floss.social/about
  - subjectsigma 3y ago
    See: https://github.com/sagesharp/code-of-conduct-template/blob/master/code-of-conduct/example-reversisms.md https://github.com/sagesharp/code-of-conduct-template/blob/m... And from that: https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9Cprioritizes%20marginalized%20people%27s%20safety%20over%20privileged%20people%27s%20comfort%E2%80%9D https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9Cprioritizes%20margi... Two notable examples: https://wiki.gnome.org/Foundation/CodeOfConduct https://wiki.gnome.org/Foundation/CodeOfConduct https://www.elastic.co/community/codeofconduct https://www.elastic.co/community/codeofconduct Probably more but I’m on vacation. Also I’m expecting you to respond saying something like “Those don’t count” anyways
    - monetus 3y ago
      > Also I’m expecting you to respond saying something like “Those don’t count” anyways The HN guidelines explicitly say take ppl in good faith. We have guidelines on this site.
rich_sasha 3y ago
I had a look expecting to find a few quickly, but couldn't. The ones I saw do mention you can't be mean about, say, gender, but among a vast swathe of other features. So I can't see how that's particularly woke. I suppose there was the brouhaha at Stack Exchange about their code or conduct and how you must use user-provided pronouns if they are specified (not even using terms like OP or "they") but looking at CoC now I can't see any mention of this. Not is SE an open-source project, it is a for-profit closed-source project with volunteer contributions.
mongol 3y ago
This is an example https://meta.chaos.social/rules https://meta.chaos.social/rules For example "No right or alt-right bullshit, Nazi content, conspiracy narratives.". What about leftish bullshit? That also exists, so why be so specific? The answer to me is pretty clear. These are rules for a specific political worldview.
- seba_dos1 3y ago
  You're mentioning a service ran by a very particular community that draws Antifa logos on badges given to participants of its events. Of course it's not going to tolerate right-wing bullshit and it has every right to state that, but I fail to see how that's on-topic here. It's hardly a surprise that a CoC used by a community that's likely "woke" by your standards appears as "woke" to you.
  - mongol 3y ago
    I was asked to provide an example and gave one. How could that not be on topic?
    - seba_dos1 3y ago
      You asserted that CoCs "usually broadcast a woke world view", and when asked for an example provided one that's used by a clearly left-aligned community. You could very well make a completely opposite statement and also find a supporting example and it would be just as informative. Many communities aren't explicitly politically aligned and their CoCs aren't either.
    - timeon 3y ago
      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/usually https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/usually
- nortonham 3y ago
  you're mad a private organization doesn't want to be associated with nazism, conspiracy theories or alt-right nonsense?
friend_and_foe 3y ago
https://www.contributor-covenant.org/ https://www.contributor-covenant.org/ is (was?) the most widely adopted code of conduct in FOSS, initially drafted by a Ruby contributor, who also happens to be transgender if that's pertinent information to you. It's the genesis seed from which all this code of conduct madness stems from. Personally I'd stick with "be excellent to each other" or "say what you want, just don't use slurs or deliberately insult other contributors" or something vague, ambiguous and universally understood as that. I'm not really a fan of rigorous social rules, so my view on this starts from that position.
- a3_nm 3y ago
  Unfortunately it seems that "be excellent to each other" is not specific enough to be understood by everyone. E.g., "address people using the name and gender that they use to refer to themselves". You would expect this to be obvious, and yet... Or maybe making this explicit is promoting a "woke ideology"?
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    [flagged]

by d3w4s9 3y ago

Traubenfuchs 3y ago

> don't tell dirty jokes That alone is annoying and limiting. Constantly having to filter and mince your words to comply with this slows down thinking and reduces creativity. Remember dongle-gate? People should be allowed to joke about dongles all they want.

chomp 3y ago
These aren’t social clubs, they’re organizations of humans dedicated to building software. Telling jokes in e.g. an issue task or a project mailing list wastes everyone’s time. And why would you be having to filter in the first place?
- Traubenfuchs 3y ago
  The motivation for this whole thread is the social club, the community aspect of a software project.
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  FOSS software projects are social clubs. They're endeavors undertaken willfully, voluntarily, usually without any expectation of financial compensation, out of personal interest. They have a goal, yes, but at the end of the day people get involved because it's fun, and they're trying to have fun and do something they think is cool. Telling someone they can't share a winkyface in chat is offputting to I'd say most talented people that do this sort of thing out of personal interest. I don't think it's a coincidence that we see alongside this rise on CoCs a rise of frustratingly hostile user experience in software.
d3w4s9 3y ago
I don't know how such a simple thing can be "annoying". Do you tell dirty jokes with colleagues when you have lunch in the cafeteria? If not, how is it difficult (not) to do the same thing online? That seems a very low bar. I am a male and I am not some sort of saint that never watches porn or never has dirty thoughts in my private life, but this (dirty jokes) isn't something I would complain about. btw I noticed that many women really don't like dirty jokes, like, disgusted by them. This can be a real turnoff for inclusivity -- imagine a woman interested in contributing to the project but decides not to participate because of issues like this.
boscovn 3y ago
Why did you bring up dongles? I thought we were discussing CoCs

subjectsigma 3y ago

There are plenty of CoCs which explicitly advocate for ideas from Critical Race Theory such as “anti-meritocracy” (meritocracy discriminates against the historically disadvantaged) and “anti-racism” (you have to be discriminatory to fight discrimination). I’m on mobile so my Google-fu is a little weak. All I can leave you with is the (unsatisfactory) anecdote that people have expoused these ideas to me in real life, saying things like “If you don’t have enough PoC contributing to your FLOSS project, you need to go and invite some regardless of if they are good contributors or not”

bryanlarsen 3y ago
> There are plenty of CoCs Examples, please.
- eclipseo76 3y ago
  https://floss.social/about https://floss.social/about
- subjectsigma 3y ago
  See: https://github.com/sagesharp/code-of-conduct-template/blob/master/code-of-conduct/example-reversisms.md https://github.com/sagesharp/code-of-conduct-template/blob/m... And from that: https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9Cprioritizes%20marginalized%20people%27s%20safety%20over%20privileged%20people%27s%20comfort%E2%80%9D https://www.google.com/search?q=%E2%80%9Cprioritizes%20margi... Two notable examples: https://wiki.gnome.org/Foundation/CodeOfConduct https://wiki.gnome.org/Foundation/CodeOfConduct https://www.elastic.co/community/codeofconduct https://www.elastic.co/community/codeofconduct Probably more but I’m on vacation. Also I’m expecting you to respond saying something like “Those don’t count” anyways
  - monetus 3y ago
    > Also I’m expecting you to respond saying something like “Those don’t count” anyways The HN guidelines explicitly say take ppl in good faith. We have guidelines on this site.

rich_sasha 3y ago

I had a look expecting to find a few quickly, but couldn't. The ones I saw do mention you can't be mean about, say, gender, but among a vast swathe of other features. So I can't see how that's particularly woke. I suppose there was the brouhaha at Stack Exchange about their code or conduct and how you must use user-provided pronouns if they are specified (not even using terms like OP or "they") but looking at CoC now I can't see any mention of this. Not is SE an open-source project, it is a for-profit closed-source project with volunteer contributions.

mongol 3y ago

This is an example https://meta.chaos.social/rules https://meta.chaos.social/rules For example "No right or alt-right bullshit, Nazi content, conspiracy narratives.". What about leftish bullshit? That also exists, so why be so specific? The answer to me is pretty clear. These are rules for a specific political worldview.

seba_dos1 3y ago
You're mentioning a service ran by a very particular community that draws Antifa logos on badges given to participants of its events. Of course it's not going to tolerate right-wing bullshit and it has every right to state that, but I fail to see how that's on-topic here. It's hardly a surprise that a CoC used by a community that's likely "woke" by your standards appears as "woke" to you.
- mongol 3y ago
  I was asked to provide an example and gave one. How could that not be on topic?
  - seba_dos1 3y ago
    You asserted that CoCs "usually broadcast a woke world view", and when asked for an example provided one that's used by a clearly left-aligned community. You could very well make a completely opposite statement and also find a supporting example and it would be just as informative. Many communities aren't explicitly politically aligned and their CoCs aren't either.
  - timeon 3y ago
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/usually https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/usually
nortonham 3y ago
you're mad a private organization doesn't want to be associated with nazism, conspiracy theories or alt-right nonsense?

friend_and_foe 3y ago

https://www.contributor-covenant.org/ https://www.contributor-covenant.org/ is (was?) the most widely adopted code of conduct in FOSS, initially drafted by a Ruby contributor, who also happens to be transgender if that's pertinent information to you. It's the genesis seed from which all this code of conduct madness stems from. Personally I'd stick with "be excellent to each other" or "say what you want, just don't use slurs or deliberately insult other contributors" or something vague, ambiguous and universally understood as that. I'm not really a fan of rigorous social rules, so my view on this starts from that position.

a3_nm 3y ago
Unfortunately it seems that "be excellent to each other" is not specific enough to be understood by everyone. E.g., "address people using the name and gender that they use to refer to themselves". You would expect this to be obvious, and yet... Or maybe making this explicit is promoting a "woke ideology"?
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  [flagged]