4 ms·

I'm sure you have done great work in Java, as have many of us, and for many of those years, Java really was the best tool for many jobs. But that was then, now

by bedobi 3y ago

I'm sure you have done great work in Java, as have many of us, and for many of those years, Java really was the best tool for many jobs. But that was then, now is now. I'm not saying Java doesn't work, even for greenfield projects today. It works fine. But me and many others also think it's not enough for something to merely work, especially not when there are other much better and more modern tools. (which Java is demonstrably playing catch-up with) You and every other C or higher level exec need to get a grip, get with the times and realize that continuing to insist on Java is only going to make (or, by now, keep, more like) your organization stale and attract more and more mediocre engineers for every year that passes. I know because I've worked with the kind of engineers who are still doing Java + Spring like it's still the 90s, and they're not the ones you want on your projects. The best talent don't even want to consider working with Java if they can help it.

jryle70 3y ago
> especially not when there are other much better and more modern tools. (which Java is demonstrably playing catch-up with) Which modern tools do you have in mind here? Java does indeed playing catch up with new features. That's inevitable for a language came out 30 years ago. OTOTH many other languages are still behind Java in terms of the runtime environment and the ecosystem. You should pick what works for you, not to go with the trend. > The best talent don't even want to consider working with Java if they can help it. I think you seriously overestimate how talent those devs are if language is the deciding factor of what they choose to work on.
- com2kid 3y ago
  > OTOTH many other languages are still behind Java in terms of the runtime environment and the ecosystem. Ecosystem doesn't matter except at the long tail. I've never needed a library that didn't exist for NodeJS, until I started doing LLM work. Now 80% of LLM libraries exist for NodeJS, 100% of LLM stuff has a Python library, and Java libraries are incredibly rare. Want an ORM solution? Java has you covered.
- bedobi 3y ago
  > Which modern tools do you have in mind here? We're talking about Kotlin here (there are many contexts where neither Kotlin nor Java is the correct tool, but for pretty much any use case where Java is an option, Kotlin is going to be a better one) > not to go with the trend I'm so sick of this argument, it presupposes that Java is the default and anything else by definition is just a trend. Kotlin is not a trend, Kotlin is not a fad. Stop begging the question. > I think you seriously overestimate how talent those devs are if language is the deciding factor of what they choose to work on. Ok, and I think you seriously overestimate the willingness of people who have given Kotlin a serious try and seen first hand how much it offers over Java to go back to working for a Java-heavy shop if they can help it.
ivan_gammel 3y ago
To build a good product you don’t need a kid with Hollywood star complex, for whom the choice of programming language or tools matters that much. If Java repels such self-proclaimed “best talent”, good, because the team will be healthier without them. There’s enough engineers willing to learn and write a good code on Java to solve a business or an user problem, and they are absolutely not mediocre. There’s even no such thing as a scale on which you could put an engineer to measure some “greatness”. Every person is unique and has talents that may be useful in different types of projects.
- bedobi 3y ago
  > To build a good product you don’t need a kid with Hollywood star complex Agree 100%. > for whom the choice of programming language or tools matters that much Programming languages do matter. Serious, mature professionals critically evaluate and compare tools and pick the best one for the job. Kotlin is a) not some fad b) objectively better than Java for pretty much every imaginable use case. Kotlin avoids entire categories of Java defects https://proandroiddev.com/kotlin-avoids-entire-categories-of-java-defects-89f160ba4671 https://proandroiddev.com/kotlin-avoids-entire-categories-of... Me and others who advocate for more modern tools are not self proclaimed wannabe rockstar devs who are only interested in the latest fad. Ultraconservative diehards who refuse to learn anything new since the 90s are the ones who need a reality check, not us.
  - ivan_gammel 3y ago
    As a mature professional who stopped counting learned programming languages and frameworks long ago (I’m familiar with Kotlin too), I can tell you that Java is a modern tool by all measures. It may lack some features of other languages and platforms, but it is not features what defines relevance for modern applications. Your advocacy is important, we of course need progress and testing new concepts. Yet what ultimately matters is business value and user experience. Java is pretty good in delivering it and many professionals choose it for that reason, leaving new stuff to pet projects at home. It is not diehard conservatism that lets us make this choice, but a mere pragmatism. For me it is not obvious that Kotlin is better. There are risks associated with less mature platform that already costed one of my teams a couple of wasted sprints. Productivity and quality impact isn’t really noticeable (the biggest factor in those two measures is always communication, not tools).
5e92cb50239222b 3y ago
That feeling is mutual. I very much prefer boring Java or .NET developers who are all supposedly stuck in the 90s to hipsters chasing after the latest JS fad of the week.
- bedobi 3y ago
  Me too! But you're building a strawman. Kotlin isn't a JS fad. It's been around for many years, is the default language for Android platform and the de facto standard IDE for Java, backed and used by Google, JetBrains and many many others. But sure, everything that isn't what you've been doing since the 90s is a fad.
za3faran 3y ago
> I've worked with the kind of engineers who are still doing Java + Spring like it's still the 90s, and they're not the ones you want on your projects And I've worked with programmers who use the latest fad of the day (golang, etc) and they're not the ones you want to have on your projects. > The best talent don't even want to consider working with Java if they can help it. Not in my experience.
- bedobi 3y ago
  Every single person who's arguing against Kotlin in this thread is resorting to the argument that it's the latest fad of the day. It's not.
  - za3faran 3y ago
    I was mainly arguing against golang. As for Kotlin, given the incredible work that has been done in Java recently, the argument is that there isn't much reason to switch over anymore, due the introduction of more moving parts into the project (another dependency, compiler, room for issues, etc.) and the fact that Java ended up with the superior approach (better/fully fledged pattern matching, virtual threads, programmable string templates, etc.).

by bedobi 3y ago

jryle70 3y ago

> especially not when there are other much better and more modern tools. (which Java is demonstrably playing catch-up with) Which modern tools do you have in mind here? Java does indeed playing catch up with new features. That's inevitable for a language came out 30 years ago. OTOTH many other languages are still behind Java in terms of the runtime environment and the ecosystem. You should pick what works for you, not to go with the trend. > The best talent don't even want to consider working with Java if they can help it. I think you seriously overestimate how talent those devs are if language is the deciding factor of what they choose to work on.

com2kid 3y ago
> OTOTH many other languages are still behind Java in terms of the runtime environment and the ecosystem. Ecosystem doesn't matter except at the long tail. I've never needed a library that didn't exist for NodeJS, until I started doing LLM work. Now 80% of LLM libraries exist for NodeJS, 100% of LLM stuff has a Python library, and Java libraries are incredibly rare. Want an ORM solution? Java has you covered.
bedobi 3y ago
> Which modern tools do you have in mind here? We're talking about Kotlin here (there are many contexts where neither Kotlin nor Java is the correct tool, but for pretty much any use case where Java is an option, Kotlin is going to be a better one) > not to go with the trend I'm so sick of this argument, it presupposes that Java is the default and anything else by definition is just a trend. Kotlin is not a trend, Kotlin is not a fad. Stop begging the question. > I think you seriously overestimate how talent those devs are if language is the deciding factor of what they choose to work on. Ok, and I think you seriously overestimate the willingness of people who have given Kotlin a serious try and seen first hand how much it offers over Java to go back to working for a Java-heavy shop if they can help it.

ivan_gammel 3y ago

To build a good product you don’t need a kid with Hollywood star complex, for whom the choice of programming language or tools matters that much. If Java repels such self-proclaimed “best talent”, good, because the team will be healthier without them. There’s enough engineers willing to learn and write a good code on Java to solve a business or an user problem, and they are absolutely not mediocre. There’s even no such thing as a scale on which you could put an engineer to measure some “greatness”. Every person is unique and has talents that may be useful in different types of projects.

bedobi 3y ago
> To build a good product you don’t need a kid with Hollywood star complex Agree 100%. > for whom the choice of programming language or tools matters that much Programming languages do matter. Serious, mature professionals critically evaluate and compare tools and pick the best one for the job. Kotlin is a) not some fad b) objectively better than Java for pretty much every imaginable use case. Kotlin avoids entire categories of Java defects https://proandroiddev.com/kotlin-avoids-entire-categories-of-java-defects-89f160ba4671 https://proandroiddev.com/kotlin-avoids-entire-categories-of... Me and others who advocate for more modern tools are not self proclaimed wannabe rockstar devs who are only interested in the latest fad. Ultraconservative diehards who refuse to learn anything new since the 90s are the ones who need a reality check, not us.
- ivan_gammel 3y ago
  As a mature professional who stopped counting learned programming languages and frameworks long ago (I’m familiar with Kotlin too), I can tell you that Java is a modern tool by all measures. It may lack some features of other languages and platforms, but it is not features what defines relevance for modern applications. Your advocacy is important, we of course need progress and testing new concepts. Yet what ultimately matters is business value and user experience. Java is pretty good in delivering it and many professionals choose it for that reason, leaving new stuff to pet projects at home. It is not diehard conservatism that lets us make this choice, but a mere pragmatism. For me it is not obvious that Kotlin is better. There are risks associated with less mature platform that already costed one of my teams a couple of wasted sprints. Productivity and quality impact isn’t really noticeable (the biggest factor in those two measures is always communication, not tools).

5e92cb50239222b 3y ago

That feeling is mutual. I very much prefer boring Java or .NET developers who are all supposedly stuck in the 90s to hipsters chasing after the latest JS fad of the week.

bedobi 3y ago
Me too! But you're building a strawman. Kotlin isn't a JS fad. It's been around for many years, is the default language for Android platform and the de facto standard IDE for Java, backed and used by Google, JetBrains and many many others. But sure, everything that isn't what you've been doing since the 90s is a fad.

za3faran 3y ago

> I've worked with the kind of engineers who are still doing Java + Spring like it's still the 90s, and they're not the ones you want on your projects And I've worked with programmers who use the latest fad of the day (golang, etc) and they're not the ones you want to have on your projects. > The best talent don't even want to consider working with Java if they can help it. Not in my experience.

bedobi 3y ago
Every single person who's arguing against Kotlin in this thread is resorting to the argument that it's the latest fad of the day. It's not.
- za3faran 3y ago
  I was mainly arguing against golang. As for Kotlin, given the incredible work that has been done in Java recently, the argument is that there isn't much reason to switch over anymore, due the introduction of more moving parts into the project (another dependency, compiler, room for issues, etc.) and the fact that Java ended up with the superior approach (better/fully fledged pattern matching, virtual threads, programmable string templates, etc.).