4 ms·

If you watch lots of disaster documentaries, you'll realize that "warnings went unheeded" or even "problems were explicitly acknowledged in formal reports over

by aftbit 3y ago

If you watch lots of disaster documentaries, you'll realize that "warnings went unheeded" or even "problems were explicitly acknowledged in formal reports over several years but not actually resolved" are incredibly common fact patterns in structure collapse. Usually structures will give some signs of impending failure, but also repair or remediation is usually very expensive and disruptive, and there are thousands of crumbling structures that require it. Only in retrospect is it obvious where we should have concentrated our limited resources.

WeylandYutani 3y ago
There was a famous flooding in the Netherlands in 1953 that was basically predicted by engineers but the country was broke after WW2. I think Libya is the same? They just came out of a civil war.
- thriftwy 3y ago
  They actually never "came" out of civil war. They're still a fractured failed state. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/15/libya-and-morocco-two-very-different-responses-to-catastrophe https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/15/libya-and-moro...
- cool_dude85 3y ago
  Calling the situation in Libya a civil war is accurate but sort of elides the real situation. Libya has not recovered from the NATO regime change operation to remove Gaddafi from power. The civil war is the outcome of the regime change operation.
  - alephxyz 3y ago
    Except the civil war started a month and a half before NATO intervention
    - rlewczuk 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - orwin 3y ago
      And one of the civil war war chief, Abdelfattah Younès, was contacted by the DGSE before the civil war started according to Hillary's emails. The DGSE might have given training and advice even before that. Also French and British diplomats lied about strikes on civil population by Kaddafi to the US and the UN (unclear if the SIS/Mi6 was played by its French counterpart or participated on forging evidence). At least the warchief that met Sarkozy was killed within the week Hillary received the information that he worked way too closely with the French, it might be happenstance, but I'd rather believe the Cia was involved somehow (if not, they're way, way less competent than everybody think) Check for Blumenthal emails on wikileaks, you'll get even more details.
  - landemva 3y ago
    US and France made airstrikes on Libya destroying infrastructure. The "spreading democracy" line is seen as Western imperialism which spreads suffering. https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/22/libya-and-the-myth-of-humanitarian-intervention https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/22/libya-and-the-myth-of-h... Libya had given up their quest to obtain nuclear weapons, yet they were still destroyed by the West. North Korea can read this history, so they dig in more fiercly to prevent a similar outcome. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/30/how-the-miserable-death-of-moammar-gadhafi-factors-into-kim-jong-uns-nuclear-ambitions.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/30/how-the-miserable-death-of-m...
dredmorbius 3y ago
Charles Perrow's work, most especially Normal Accidents and The Next Disaster focuses on this and related organisational and sociological failings. Very strongly recommended. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_Accidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_Accidents> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrow#Notable_works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrow#Notable_works>
hypercube33 3y ago
As a fan of Plainfilly difficult on YouTube it seems like every major event is just like the ones before it like you say.
usea 3y ago
Limited resources is the mechanism through which many projects are mismanaged.
ChatGTP 3y ago
I’m quite concerned all developed nations are going this way. Japan, ridiculous amounts of infrastructure, almost, no one around to keep it maintained within the next twenty to thirty years ? The USA is in a similar situation, many qualified people are entering retirement age, yes we have immigration but I don’t think there would be a huge number of qualified civil engineers coming to the USA and getting qualified to work here.

by aftbit 3y ago

WeylandYutani 3y ago

There was a famous flooding in the Netherlands in 1953 that was basically predicted by engineers but the country was broke after WW2. I think Libya is the same? They just came out of a civil war.

thriftwy 3y ago
They actually never "came" out of civil war. They're still a fractured failed state. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/15/libya-and-morocco-two-very-different-responses-to-catastrophe https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/15/libya-and-moro...
cool_dude85 3y ago
Calling the situation in Libya a civil war is accurate but sort of elides the real situation. Libya has not recovered from the NATO regime change operation to remove Gaddafi from power. The civil war is the outcome of the regime change operation.
- alephxyz 3y ago
  Except the civil war started a month and a half before NATO intervention
  - rlewczuk 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - orwin 3y ago
    And one of the civil war war chief, Abdelfattah Younès, was contacted by the DGSE before the civil war started according to Hillary's emails. The DGSE might have given training and advice even before that. Also French and British diplomats lied about strikes on civil population by Kaddafi to the US and the UN (unclear if the SIS/Mi6 was played by its French counterpart or participated on forging evidence). At least the warchief that met Sarkozy was killed within the week Hillary received the information that he worked way too closely with the French, it might be happenstance, but I'd rather believe the Cia was involved somehow (if not, they're way, way less competent than everybody think) Check for Blumenthal emails on wikileaks, you'll get even more details.
- landemva 3y ago
  US and France made airstrikes on Libya destroying infrastructure. The "spreading democracy" line is seen as Western imperialism which spreads suffering. https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/22/libya-and-the-myth-of-humanitarian-intervention https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/22/libya-and-the-myth-of-h... Libya had given up their quest to obtain nuclear weapons, yet they were still destroyed by the West. North Korea can read this history, so they dig in more fiercly to prevent a similar outcome. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/30/how-the-miserable-death-of-moammar-gadhafi-factors-into-kim-jong-uns-nuclear-ambitions.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/30/how-the-miserable-death-of-m...

dredmorbius 3y ago

Charles Perrow's work, most especially Normal Accidents and The Next Disaster focuses on this and related organisational and sociological failings. Very strongly recommended. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_Accidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_Accidents> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrow#Notable_works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrow#Notable_works>

hypercube33 3y ago

As a fan of Plainfilly difficult on YouTube it seems like every major event is just like the ones before it like you say.

usea 3y ago

Limited resources is the mechanism through which many projects are mismanaged.

ChatGTP 3y ago

I’m quite concerned all developed nations are going this way. Japan, ridiculous amounts of infrastructure, almost, no one around to keep it maintained within the next twenty to thirty years ? The USA is in a similar situation, many qualified people are entering retirement age, yes we have immigration but I don’t think there would be a huge number of qualified civil engineers coming to the USA and getting qualified to work here.