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What evidence do they have so far about these objects? NASA's head Bill Nelson said there are only a few high-resolution videos of these objects, but so far non

What evidence do they have so far about these objects? NASA's head Bill Nelson said there are only a few high-resolution videos of these objects, but so far none of it has been released to my knowledge. The best way to stop conspiracies would be publicly releasing the radar and video data they do have of anomalous objects, whatever they might be. Anything else is patronizing and feeds distrust, deservedly or not.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Avshalom 3y ago
The best way to spot a conspiracy theory (in the pejorative sense) is that a lack of evidence and evidence against the theory are treated as affirmative.
- pmarreck 3y ago
  Right. For something so ho-hum, there's too many signs of suspicion-inducing secrecy showing, such as the fact that they didn't announce the guy's name who was going to lead it, then probably realized that that would just further any conspiracy theories around it (justifiably), then they DID announce his name... When I learned this yesterday I said aloud "FFS" because it's such a dumb human foible. If this was in fact a coverup, the only reason it's worked so long (despite humans being unable to keep secrets) is due to two things: 1) the implausibility of the premise 2) the ridicule of the claimants 3) the compartmentalization of the information, and possibly 4) the threat of unknown agents The thing is, the truth eventually always comes out. How do you think this is going to look, once it does?
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    You said "right" at the beginning then got reproachful at the end. In between there's a lot of material and references that won't be obvious to other people. So I'm confused. But I'm pretty sure they'll be just fine, as long as the reptilians continue suppressing the truth.* * my understanding of why people get drawn into these nothing-burgers is you see new info, you think somethings around the corner where all those skeptics are proven wrong. years pass, and people either acknowledge it was a nothing burger or escalate claims to explain away why there's all these aliens bouncing around, everyone would want to hear that, Congress is demanding anyone who claims such be given a wide bearth and credence and yet....still nothing.
    - david-gpu 3y ago
      > But I'm pretty sure they'll be just fine, as long as the reptilians continue suppressing the truth If you can't resist ridiculing people who are trying to maintain a respectful friendly conversation with you online, you are reinforcing their conviction that stigma and ridicule are preventing the subject from being studied earnestly. Are you in the habit of sneering at people in other subjects as well?
      - refulgentis 3y ago
        I took the end of your comment as in good humor and not a sneer. Then, as always in communication, I tried to meet you where you were, seemingly in good humor on the subject and self-aware. If I knew it'd hurt you I wouldn't have said it. My deepest apologies. You didn't deserve that, at all.
  - david-gpu 3y ago
    Paraphrasing here, perhaps the best way to maintain a conspiracy, in the non-pejorative sense, may be to classify the evidence and run a systematic campaign of ridicule and misinformation so that whenever a whistleblower comes out they can be rapidly labeled as a kook regardless of their bona fides. I'm on the fence on this subject, finding both some merits and demerits to the arguments of both detractors and supporters of the NHI hypothesis. Until we have publicly available concrete data to analyze, all we are doing is speculating and slinging mud at each other. The difference being that the proponents of the NHI hypothesis are all for obtaining and releasing such data, while the critics appear to be very comfortable with the status quo of secrecy.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - forgofuture 3y ago
    NASA and Pentagon employees have been harassed and threatened by fanatical UFO people. Some of these individuals are connected to Lue Elizondo. Elizondo and the elders of the UFO Core Story team create “secret” groups and have been trying for 40-years to get their own UFO program. They intimidate anyone who challenges their narrative. They first described it as the Secret Onion around 1988 in Jacques Vallee’s diaries. These are intelligence affiliated people and former “psychic spies” who are pawns of counterintelligence and victims of their own delusions and greed. You can read below how Elizondo claimed to be a 33rd degree Freemason. They have groups like the Invisibles, the Cosmic Club and all these other fake elite scientist groups where they network. There’s a Stanford professor who lies about “working with the CIA” when in reality, none of these people have security clearances. The professor works with an ex-CIA employee from 40-years ago on privately funded cases. They repeat rumors that ex-CIA or ex-DoD people repeat. These rumors, lies and sophisticated hoaxes originate from multiple unrelated sources. There is definitely an illegal aspect and unknown actors involved in sophisticated hoaxes for decades. All of this related to war and geopolitical tactics but it is impossible to uncover because it is outside the government and obfuscated behind legitimate counterintelligence and the real national security risk of advance UAS. Lue Elizondo claims to be 33rd degree Freemason- https://medium.com/@osirisuap/my-search-for-the-truth-about-ufos-part-3-red-flags-red-flags-everywhere-c6fe43021dbd https://medium.com/@osirisuap/my-search-for-the-truth-about-...
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      To be fair, at least the Freemasons exist. It's mostly just a drinking club for men who want a reprieve from their wives. Claiming to be a Freemason might be a lie, but it's a mundane sort of claim to make.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- david-gpu 3y ago
  We have gotten to the point where they admit to the presence of UAPs, now they need to release data of those sightings so that third parties can analyze it and the academic peer review process can begin. Anything else is speculation, one way or another, and that won't lead to a broad consensus.
  - Avshalom 3y ago
    Nothing except "yep it's definitely aliens" will lead to "broad consensus" because no analysis will be considered evidence against aliens by the people who already believe it's aliens.
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      I think flat earthers and alike are always excempt, when someone speaks of a broad consensus.
    - david-gpu 3y ago
      There is nothing to lose by declassifying and releasing the "high definition videos" that NASA's head and AARO's director talk about. Are you opposed to that? If you are, can you elaborate?
      - Avshalom 3y ago
        I'm not opposed, broadly speaking I don't really support the idea of classified or secret information at all (in like a government context, I'm not going to tell you my birthday and social#) It just won't do anything. And it's really obvious that it won't do anything.
      - crustaceansoup 3y ago
        They're usually classified because they reveal information on sensor capabilities, NASA's director talked about that at the press conference.
        deleted 3y ago
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  Humans are wired to spot patterns. Many humans aren’t capable of overcoming that trait at the appropriate times. It becomes far too trivial for someone to ignore a thousand points against and obsess over three points for, because it validates that pattern-seeking behaviour. It’s why I don’t really hold any disdain for the conspiracy theorists: they’re functioning as nature intended.
  - leeoniya 3y ago
    https://imgflip.com/i/1qdll1 https://imgflip.com/i/1qdll1
  - ourmandave 3y ago
    If you don't believe lions are dangerous because a few people weren't attacked, but then are eaten by lions, that's also nature functioning as intended.
    - Avshalom 3y ago
      Full disclosure: there is no amount of people being eaten by lions that will stop me from trying give one skritches. The one conspiratorial belief I hold is that all animals are my friend and someone is trying to keep them away from me.
      - Waterluvian 3y ago
        Somewhere, at some point in time, some zoologist got his heart broken by a hippo and decided to convince humanity to stay the hell away from them. I, for one, am not going to fall for that conspiracy. Hippos just want hugs.
        Avshalom 3y ago
        I mean they always start running towards me when they see me!
        effingwewt 3y ago
casperc 3y ago
Yup, we need more data, and it appears the ball is somewhat rolling on this. And meanwhile we need to try to not jump to conclusions, even though it is so very tempting for believers and sceptics alike. But interesting is the field or subject of ufology (though I hate that word). It is so mixed with crazy people, very reasonable people, grifters, those who are maybe grifters, disinformation (maybe or just the crazy people or grifters again?) and maybe some real interesting stuff among it all.
- tptacek 3y ago
  If the issues we're talking about stem from claims David Grusch (or people in that circle) made, then enough has been disclosed already to draw some conclusions: when your key witnesses discredit themselves, that is itself a form of evidence.
JoeAltmaier 3y ago
I'd like to think that. But the crackpots will sieze on any evidence and debate endlessly that it either in fact reinforces the alien origin, or it's been tampered with, or I don't know, it's been tampered with by aliens. Trusting in evidence and objective reasoning mark us as old people. Today the only 'facts' are social media posts.
- david-gpu 3y ago
  > I'd like to think that. But the crackpots will sieze [sic] on any evidence A little respect goes a long way towards having constructive conversations with people. A good place to start is accepting that perhaps the people we are talking to are not crackpots, and that that what they want is not all that different from what we want.
  - Avshalom 3y ago
    >the people we are talking to are not crackpots I hate to break it to you man, but in this dichotomy you're one of the crackpots.
    - david-gpu 3y ago
      > I hate to break it to you man, but in this dichotomy you're one of the crackpots. Thank you for supporting my thesis that in this conversation there are those who treat each other with respect, regardless of which hypothesis they support, and those who don't.
      - tptacek 3y ago
        This is the third person on this thread you’ve attacked personally when you got frustrated that they didn’t agree with you. You may be right about the futility of debating UAPs on HN, in which case, you should probably stop. In this case, you might say you were provoked. But the preceding comment is itself reacting to personal arguments you made earlier. It’s just a mess, and it’s not working out for you.
forgofuture 3y ago
99% of all this is legitimate counterintelligence. Different parts of the government benefit in various ways, like justifying a domestic counterintelligence program. Or getting access to emerging technologies, building information networks, shielding classified aerospace technology, foreign disinformation and longterm geopolitical tactics. It will never be explained because it is both fake and necessary. The government can’t stop its employees from believing in pseudoscience and the supernatural thus making them targets of foreign spies. Overall, some people involved in this do seem to want it to end. Even if you’re an influential actor within the Intelligence Community, you are up against say 20 other agencies/departments that benefit from the UFO enigma. Check out this article from 2012 about “Spherical Aircraft” from Aerospherical Systems. Whatever the real UAP are, they are definitely not intergalactic. It would be impossible to keep it a secret. https://www.unmannedsystemstechnology.com/2012/05/aerospherical-systems-announces-new-spherical-aircraft/ https://www.unmannedsystemstechnology.com/2012/05/aerospheri...
- ignorethefacts 3y ago
  I agree, the UFO narrative is a psyop. They are shifting the Overton window on us and the questions are to what extent and what purpose. The worst and best conspiracy theory I have heard about this is that there has been a plan to stage an alien invasion. 100% fake invasion with real explosions. You just need to get the population into the right mindset such that they will suspend their disbelief when the bombs drop and the media is showing fake aliens. Add a sprinkle of NASA magic and their new satellites will 'confirm' everything. Once you believe aliens are real, the theory states you will abandon all religion and either worship the new overlords or trust your government. The theory sounded ridiculous to me until we had all these government sponsored psyops pushing us closer towards it. Aliens are not real.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Avshalom 3y ago

The best way to spot a conspiracy theory (in the pejorative sense) is that a lack of evidence and evidence against the theory are treated as affirmative.

pmarreck 3y ago
Right. For something so ho-hum, there's too many signs of suspicion-inducing secrecy showing, such as the fact that they didn't announce the guy's name who was going to lead it, then probably realized that that would just further any conspiracy theories around it (justifiably), then they DID announce his name... When I learned this yesterday I said aloud "FFS" because it's such a dumb human foible. If this was in fact a coverup, the only reason it's worked so long (despite humans being unable to keep secrets) is due to two things: 1) the implausibility of the premise 2) the ridicule of the claimants 3) the compartmentalization of the information, and possibly 4) the threat of unknown agents The thing is, the truth eventually always comes out. How do you think this is going to look, once it does?
- refulgentis 3y ago
  You said "right" at the beginning then got reproachful at the end. In between there's a lot of material and references that won't be obvious to other people. So I'm confused. But I'm pretty sure they'll be just fine, as long as the reptilians continue suppressing the truth.* * my understanding of why people get drawn into these nothing-burgers is you see new info, you think somethings around the corner where all those skeptics are proven wrong. years pass, and people either acknowledge it was a nothing burger or escalate claims to explain away why there's all these aliens bouncing around, everyone would want to hear that, Congress is demanding anyone who claims such be given a wide bearth and credence and yet....still nothing.
  - david-gpu 3y ago
    > But I'm pretty sure they'll be just fine, as long as the reptilians continue suppressing the truth If you can't resist ridiculing people who are trying to maintain a respectful friendly conversation with you online, you are reinforcing their conviction that stigma and ridicule are preventing the subject from being studied earnestly. Are you in the habit of sneering at people in other subjects as well?
    - refulgentis 3y ago
      I took the end of your comment as in good humor and not a sneer. Then, as always in communication, I tried to meet you where you were, seemingly in good humor on the subject and self-aware. If I knew it'd hurt you I wouldn't have said it. My deepest apologies. You didn't deserve that, at all.
- david-gpu 3y ago
  Paraphrasing here, perhaps the best way to maintain a conspiracy, in the non-pejorative sense, may be to classify the evidence and run a systematic campaign of ridicule and misinformation so that whenever a whistleblower comes out they can be rapidly labeled as a kook regardless of their bona fides. I'm on the fence on this subject, finding both some merits and demerits to the arguments of both detractors and supporters of the NHI hypothesis. Until we have publicly available concrete data to analyze, all we are doing is speculating and slinging mud at each other. The difference being that the proponents of the NHI hypothesis are all for obtaining and releasing such data, while the critics appear to be very comfortable with the status quo of secrecy.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- forgofuture 3y ago
  NASA and Pentagon employees have been harassed and threatened by fanatical UFO people. Some of these individuals are connected to Lue Elizondo. Elizondo and the elders of the UFO Core Story team create “secret” groups and have been trying for 40-years to get their own UFO program. They intimidate anyone who challenges their narrative. They first described it as the Secret Onion around 1988 in Jacques Vallee’s diaries. These are intelligence affiliated people and former “psychic spies” who are pawns of counterintelligence and victims of their own delusions and greed. You can read below how Elizondo claimed to be a 33rd degree Freemason. They have groups like the Invisibles, the Cosmic Club and all these other fake elite scientist groups where they network. There’s a Stanford professor who lies about “working with the CIA” when in reality, none of these people have security clearances. The professor works with an ex-CIA employee from 40-years ago on privately funded cases. They repeat rumors that ex-CIA or ex-DoD people repeat. These rumors, lies and sophisticated hoaxes originate from multiple unrelated sources. There is definitely an illegal aspect and unknown actors involved in sophisticated hoaxes for decades. All of this related to war and geopolitical tactics but it is impossible to uncover because it is outside the government and obfuscated behind legitimate counterintelligence and the real national security risk of advance UAS. Lue Elizondo claims to be 33rd degree Freemason- https://medium.com/@osirisuap/my-search-for-the-truth-about-ufos-part-3-red-flags-red-flags-everywhere-c6fe43021dbd https://medium.com/@osirisuap/my-search-for-the-truth-about-...
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    To be fair, at least the Freemasons exist. It's mostly just a drinking club for men who want a reprieve from their wives. Claiming to be a Freemason might be a lie, but it's a mundane sort of claim to make.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
david-gpu 3y ago
We have gotten to the point where they admit to the presence of UAPs, now they need to release data of those sightings so that third parties can analyze it and the academic peer review process can begin. Anything else is speculation, one way or another, and that won't lead to a broad consensus.
- Avshalom 3y ago
  Nothing except "yep it's definitely aliens" will lead to "broad consensus" because no analysis will be considered evidence against aliens by the people who already believe it's aliens.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    I think flat earthers and alike are always excempt, when someone speaks of a broad consensus.
  - david-gpu 3y ago
    There is nothing to lose by declassifying and releasing the "high definition videos" that NASA's head and AARO's director talk about. Are you opposed to that? If you are, can you elaborate?
    - Avshalom 3y ago
      I'm not opposed, broadly speaking I don't really support the idea of classified or secret information at all (in like a government context, I'm not going to tell you my birthday and social#) It just won't do anything. And it's really obvious that it won't do anything.
    - crustaceansoup 3y ago
      They're usually classified because they reveal information on sensor capabilities, NASA's director talked about that at the press conference.
      - deleted 3y ago
Waterluvian 3y ago
Humans are wired to spot patterns. Many humans aren’t capable of overcoming that trait at the appropriate times. It becomes far too trivial for someone to ignore a thousand points against and obsess over three points for, because it validates that pattern-seeking behaviour. It’s why I don’t really hold any disdain for the conspiracy theorists: they’re functioning as nature intended.
- leeoniya 3y ago
  https://imgflip.com/i/1qdll1 https://imgflip.com/i/1qdll1
- ourmandave 3y ago
  If you don't believe lions are dangerous because a few people weren't attacked, but then are eaten by lions, that's also nature functioning as intended.
  - Avshalom 3y ago
    Full disclosure: there is no amount of people being eaten by lions that will stop me from trying give one skritches. The one conspiratorial belief I hold is that all animals are my friend and someone is trying to keep them away from me.
    - Waterluvian 3y ago
      Somewhere, at some point in time, some zoologist got his heart broken by a hippo and decided to convince humanity to stay the hell away from them. I, for one, am not going to fall for that conspiracy. Hippos just want hugs.
      - Avshalom 3y ago
        I mean they always start running towards me when they see me!
      - effingwewt 3y ago

casperc 3y ago

Yup, we need more data, and it appears the ball is somewhat rolling on this. And meanwhile we need to try to not jump to conclusions, even though it is so very tempting for believers and sceptics alike. But interesting is the field or subject of ufology (though I hate that word). It is so mixed with crazy people, very reasonable people, grifters, those who are maybe grifters, disinformation (maybe or just the crazy people or grifters again?) and maybe some real interesting stuff among it all.

tptacek 3y ago
If the issues we're talking about stem from claims David Grusch (or people in that circle) made, then enough has been disclosed already to draw some conclusions: when your key witnesses discredit themselves, that is itself a form of evidence.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago

I'd like to think that. But the crackpots will sieze on any evidence and debate endlessly that it either in fact reinforces the alien origin, or it's been tampered with, or I don't know, it's been tampered with by aliens. Trusting in evidence and objective reasoning mark us as old people. Today the only 'facts' are social media posts.

david-gpu 3y ago
> I'd like to think that. But the crackpots will sieze [sic] on any evidence A little respect goes a long way towards having constructive conversations with people. A good place to start is accepting that perhaps the people we are talking to are not crackpots, and that that what they want is not all that different from what we want.
- Avshalom 3y ago
  >the people we are talking to are not crackpots I hate to break it to you man, but in this dichotomy you're one of the crackpots.
  - david-gpu 3y ago
    > I hate to break it to you man, but in this dichotomy you're one of the crackpots. Thank you for supporting my thesis that in this conversation there are those who treat each other with respect, regardless of which hypothesis they support, and those who don't.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      This is the third person on this thread you’ve attacked personally when you got frustrated that they didn’t agree with you. You may be right about the futility of debating UAPs on HN, in which case, you should probably stop. In this case, you might say you were provoked. But the preceding comment is itself reacting to personal arguments you made earlier. It’s just a mess, and it’s not working out for you.

forgofuture 3y ago

99% of all this is legitimate counterintelligence. Different parts of the government benefit in various ways, like justifying a domestic counterintelligence program. Or getting access to emerging technologies, building information networks, shielding classified aerospace technology, foreign disinformation and longterm geopolitical tactics. It will never be explained because it is both fake and necessary. The government can’t stop its employees from believing in pseudoscience and the supernatural thus making them targets of foreign spies. Overall, some people involved in this do seem to want it to end. Even if you’re an influential actor within the Intelligence Community, you are up against say 20 other agencies/departments that benefit from the UFO enigma. Check out this article from 2012 about “Spherical Aircraft” from Aerospherical Systems. Whatever the real UAP are, they are definitely not intergalactic. It would be impossible to keep it a secret. https://www.unmannedsystemstechnology.com/2012/05/aerospherical-systems-announces-new-spherical-aircraft/ https://www.unmannedsystemstechnology.com/2012/05/aerospheri...

ignorethefacts 3y ago
I agree, the UFO narrative is a psyop. They are shifting the Overton window on us and the questions are to what extent and what purpose. The worst and best conspiracy theory I have heard about this is that there has been a plan to stage an alien invasion. 100% fake invasion with real explosions. You just need to get the population into the right mindset such that they will suspend their disbelief when the bombs drop and the media is showing fake aliens. Add a sprinkle of NASA magic and their new satellites will 'confirm' everything. Once you believe aliens are real, the theory states you will abandon all religion and either worship the new overlords or trust your government. The theory sounded ridiculous to me until we had all these government sponsored psyops pushing us closer towards it. Aliens are not real.