4 ms·

The espionage really is next level in China. It’s not just reconstructing software (that’s part of it) but stealing binaries (and source where they can) for eve

by harles 3y ago

The espionage really is next level in China. It’s not just reconstructing software (that’s part of it) but stealing binaries (and source where they can) for everything along the way. I worked at a large tech co with an assembly line in China and experienced this first hand. A routine scan of one of our calibration machines turned up a Trojan with a copy of all calibration software squirreled away. Fortunately nothing is network connected there, but it was obvious someone was planning to come back for it. The stash had our calibration software and the factory’s proprietary control software on it. Both companies sent security to watch the machine for 48 hours straight until a hard drive shredder could be procured to mutually assure each party no software would leak. It was nuts, but apparently common.

prox 3y ago
How did this become a thing on a cultural scale? Like that everyone does it and it is almost expected as it were?
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  It's master planned by the government. Just Google "Chinese protectionist" and then any industry. The Chinese government has been actively targeting everything from CNC machine tools to medical devices and semiconductors for decades. Some industries with more success than others. Anything they import, especially industrial equipment like textile looms, cnc machines, semiconductor equipment, etc. There are big, long term, well funded pushes to manufacture indigenous versions of just about everything. Airplanes, jet engines, computer chips, industrial equipment, on and on
  - the-dude 3y ago
    Textile looms are particularly relevant : https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-europe https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-eur...
- kome 3y ago
  it's not espionage, it's a development strategy, and it's working well. it foster local knowledge, local know how and local production. the deal is: you can use our cheap labor force, but we can use your ideas
  - nrb 3y ago
    The issue appears to be when they’re not just using the ideas, but the implementations verbatim?
  - emptysongglass 3y ago
    That's not "the deal". It's illegal. No one on either side agreed to do this and had that been part of the negotiation, the offended party would have walked away or else agreed to a higher sale price in exchange for technology transfer.
    - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      Am yes, executives of eestern firms earn billions spesifically because they are clueless about the country where they outsource production. It might nit be in the contract, but they definitely know whats going on, and they still take the deal
    - xmcqdpt2 3y ago
      > It's illegal. According to who? Sovereign states have their own laws, that's what makes them sovereign. You claim that companies wouldn't have done business in China (in the times before our current Second Cold War) had they known about the lack of IP law enforcement there. I think companies who outsourced to China knew very well what was going on, and calculated that they'd still come out ahead.
      - berniedurfee 3y ago
        I agree with this. The executives that made the decision to outsource and offshore understood that near term gains would come with long term consequences, they always do. Those executives did very well by those short term gains.
- varjag 3y ago
  Mainand Chinese culture owes itself more to Stalin than to Confucius. If you lived in USSR stories like this have certain warmth of deep cultural connect.
- BeFlatXIII 3y ago
  Information wants to be free. If it's not, it's your duty to liberate it.
  - peteradio 3y ago
    This is so obnoxiously wrong. You could add qualifications to your statement to be less wrong but your statement as is is stupid. When I'm banging my wife is it my duty to start banging on the walls and bellow at my sleeping kids to let them know what I'm up to?
    - BeFlatXIII 3y ago
      What does your analogy have to do with my post?
    - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      That's just creating noise and disturbance. Correct analogies would be uploading it to Pornhub. For whatever reason plenty of people do that
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > How did this become a thing on a cultural scale? A IP is not a 'natural' concept, most cultures do not have it. Better question might be how did IP become a cultural thing in the West?
  - victorbjorklund 3y ago
    Of course they have IP in China. If a western firm violates a chinese firms IP they will of course take action.

by harles 3y ago

prox 3y ago

How did this become a thing on a cultural scale? Like that everyone does it and it is almost expected as it were?

iancmceachern 3y ago
It's master planned by the government. Just Google "Chinese protectionist" and then any industry. The Chinese government has been actively targeting everything from CNC machine tools to medical devices and semiconductors for decades. Some industries with more success than others. Anything they import, especially industrial equipment like textile looms, cnc machines, semiconductor equipment, etc. There are big, long term, well funded pushes to manufacture indigenous versions of just about everything. Airplanes, jet engines, computer chips, industrial equipment, on and on
- the-dude 3y ago
  Textile looms are particularly relevant : https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-europe https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-eur...
kome 3y ago
it's not espionage, it's a development strategy, and it's working well. it foster local knowledge, local know how and local production. the deal is: you can use our cheap labor force, but we can use your ideas
- nrb 3y ago
  The issue appears to be when they’re not just using the ideas, but the implementations verbatim?
- emptysongglass 3y ago
  That's not "the deal". It's illegal. No one on either side agreed to do this and had that been part of the negotiation, the offended party would have walked away or else agreed to a higher sale price in exchange for technology transfer.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    Am yes, executives of eestern firms earn billions spesifically because they are clueless about the country where they outsource production. It might nit be in the contract, but they definitely know whats going on, and they still take the deal
  - xmcqdpt2 3y ago
    > It's illegal. According to who? Sovereign states have their own laws, that's what makes them sovereign. You claim that companies wouldn't have done business in China (in the times before our current Second Cold War) had they known about the lack of IP law enforcement there. I think companies who outsourced to China knew very well what was going on, and calculated that they'd still come out ahead.
    - berniedurfee 3y ago
      I agree with this. The executives that made the decision to outsource and offshore understood that near term gains would come with long term consequences, they always do. Those executives did very well by those short term gains.
varjag 3y ago
Mainand Chinese culture owes itself more to Stalin than to Confucius. If you lived in USSR stories like this have certain warmth of deep cultural connect.
BeFlatXIII 3y ago
Information wants to be free. If it's not, it's your duty to liberate it.
- peteradio 3y ago
  This is so obnoxiously wrong. You could add qualifications to your statement to be less wrong but your statement as is is stupid. When I'm banging my wife is it my duty to start banging on the walls and bellow at my sleeping kids to let them know what I'm up to?
  - BeFlatXIII 3y ago
    What does your analogy have to do with my post?
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    That's just creating noise and disturbance. Correct analogies would be uploading it to Pornhub. For whatever reason plenty of people do that
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> How did this become a thing on a cultural scale? A IP is not a 'natural' concept, most cultures do not have it. Better question might be how did IP become a cultural thing in the West?
- victorbjorklund 3y ago
  Of course they have IP in China. If a western firm violates a chinese firms IP they will of course take action.