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So an engineer learns how to make something, and then goes elsewhere to make it. To be honest, the way you put ut, the story feels OK to me. There are many tr

So an engineer learns how to make something, and then goes elsewhere to make it. To be honest, the way you put ut, the story feels OK to me. There are many truly bad examples, e.g. the arm china story, but engineers doing their thing is not one of them.

SenAnder 3y ago
It "feels OK", stripped of context, but nevertheless results in your industries slowly withering and getting taken over by their new Chinese competitors in what used to be their home market. If you remove uniforms from a soccer match, you can celebrate each individual player's goal. But the team that forgets they are (or should be) playing a team game will be obliterated.
iancmceachern 3y ago
This isn't that. This is engineers deliberately taking tech to somewhere where they know IP laws won't be enforced. It's not like I'm saying they can learn calculus here and then go to China and use calculus to design things. It's that I'm saying they design a very specific thing, a very specific way, for hire, then go make that exact specific thing, that same specific way. If it were in any other country but China, it wouldn't be allowed to happen.
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  Sounds like a thing unions might do better
- barry-cotter 3y ago
  > It's that I'm saying they design a very specific thing, a very specific way, for hire, then go make that exact specific thing, that same specific way. I really doubt this unless all the inputs are commoditised. Industrial espionage usually fails because if you don’t have the know how to make the tools that make the tools it’s difficult to impossible to literally copy it. Not saying what you’re saying doesn’t happen, it does, all the time. But usually the engineering is substantially different if only because different things are cheap or expensive, or just unavailable. > If it were in any other country but China, it wouldn't be allowed to happen. Historically, the US, Japan, Korea, Taiwan all did it. No doubt Vietnam does it now too. Not like they have an excellent civil legal system. Joys of working in developing countries.
  - flakeoil 3y ago
    > if you don’t have the know how to make the tools that make the tools it’s difficult to impossible to literally copy it. Smart and knowledgable people in a certain field, but who are slightly stuck, can be helped by a few tiny details. If someone can provide a specific manual or piece of documentation, or just a photo copy or image of some key detail then those smart and knowledgable people can pass the hurdle and continue.
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      Exactly, and now days you can buy most tools you would need on ebay. Need a huge cnc milling machine? Ebay, Need an injection molding machine? Packaging equipment, whatever. Even medical equipment
- the-dude 3y ago
  > If it were in any other country but China, it wouldn't be allowed to happen. IIRC the USA did plenty of that.
  - berniedurfee 3y ago
    That’s my understanding as well; that the Industrial Revolution in the US was very much based on IP from outside the US.
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      But was it state sponsored? My understanding is that it was mostly robber barrons doing their thing, which isn't really "The US", its more "People in the US".
      - mindslight 3y ago
        This may be the furthest I've seen the false dichotomy between government and corporations stretched.
        iancmceachern 3y ago
        I'll admit the failures of the US government just much as anyone, am and will always be a tough critic.. But let's not forget the greater context here. We are talking about a communist country with very top down, state architected enterprises and actions with the USA, which is certainly not those things. The US isn't perfect, by any means, I'm not trying to say that. Context, that's what I'm trying to have us remember here.
        mindslight 3y ago
        How is that context supposed to be relevant to the point? That China is doing a poorer job by trying to direct the process centrally rather than something more nimble?
- ak_111 3y ago
  This feels like the debate between tax evasion and tax avoidance. What the engineer did here going to an IP lawless place is more like tax avoidance. It has a bad smell but he legally exploited a loophole in the international IP system if I understood correctly. Sort of migrating to a tax haven to avoid taxes. Unless there is something explicitly stated in your contract banning you from taking the "know-how" in your brains and use it elsewhere (so long as you don't breach any patent) then it sounds there is nothing technically wrong.
  - fennecfoxy 3y ago
    Which is why there are export bans on plenty of things to China, the US Gov (I'm not American) rightfully understands what's going on under the table and the easiest way to curb theft of high technology is an outright ban (Nvidia products, etc). I think it's a cultural thing as well, some sort of hustle culture, as the Chinese citizens that moved to NZ when I grew up loved to flout rules & laws around things like the property markets etc - one big problem was Chinese nationals buying up as much NZ baby formula & milk poweder as they could get, hiking the price & selling/sending it to China, so much that NZ experienced shortages for Kiwi mothers trying to feed their babies, so much so that supermarkets had to instate a X per person policy. When I worked in one during 1st year uni I would get literally screamed at in Mandarin by angry and aggressive Chinese nationals with trolleys full of baby formula. And keep in mind that all of that started only because of the big scare where Chinese baby formula was found to have melamine in it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal) killing 6 babies, affecting hundreds of thousands. All because Sanlu's execs wanted more $$$ so they cut their product.
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    It's less that it's explicitly legal, and more that it's not enforced or enforceable there right?
    - ak_111 3y ago
      Am not a lawyer or even a tax expert, just was noting that for non-experts in these domains this scenario look similar (China is doing to IP what tax havens did for taxes).
- sametmax 3y ago
  If you learn how to build a castel with a very specific era look and feel as an architect, would you not then be likely hired to build a similar castel elsewhere?
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    I Do this for a living, ave for 20 years. I've designed many "castles" with similar looks and feels, similar materials, they work similarly. But I've never built the exact same castle, with the exact same Floorplan, with the exact same plans. That's what I'm highlighting that I've seen several times. A cool aside, I love this song by Watsky called "cardboard castles". Having done this for 20 years (build "cardboard castles") I identify with it. https://youtu.be/FN1OR1aa2cM?si=0mFPuCtiVLp-Us1h https://youtu.be/FN1OR1aa2cM?si=0mFPuCtiVLp-Us1h
    - sentimentscan 3y ago
      Do you have any portfolio of those castles? I am quite interested in the long future for maybe building one
harles 3y ago
The espionage really is next level in China. It’s not just reconstructing software (that’s part of it) but stealing binaries (and source where they can) for everything along the way. I worked at a large tech co with an assembly line in China and experienced this first hand. A routine scan of one of our calibration machines turned up a Trojan with a copy of all calibration software squirreled away. Fortunately nothing is network connected there, but it was obvious someone was planning to come back for it. The stash had our calibration software and the factory’s proprietary control software on it. Both companies sent security to watch the machine for 48 hours straight until a hard drive shredder could be procured to mutually assure each party no software would leak. It was nuts, but apparently common.
- prox 3y ago
  How did this become a thing on a cultural scale? Like that everyone does it and it is almost expected as it were?
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    It's master planned by the government. Just Google "Chinese protectionist" and then any industry. The Chinese government has been actively targeting everything from CNC machine tools to medical devices and semiconductors for decades. Some industries with more success than others. Anything they import, especially industrial equipment like textile looms, cnc machines, semiconductor equipment, etc. There are big, long term, well funded pushes to manufacture indigenous versions of just about everything. Airplanes, jet engines, computer chips, industrial equipment, on and on
    - the-dude 3y ago
      Textile looms are particularly relevant : https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-europe https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-eur...
  - kome 3y ago
    it's not espionage, it's a development strategy, and it's working well. it foster local knowledge, local know how and local production. the deal is: you can use our cheap labor force, but we can use your ideas
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> So an engineer learns how to make something, and then goes elsewhere to make it. It's not long till the capital class claims ownership of your brain too. /s
- ComputerGuru 3y ago
  I don’t think /s is needed. Tech firms already wish they could act that way, and if they aren’t, it’s only because they’re not able to.

SenAnder 3y ago

It "feels OK", stripped of context, but nevertheless results in your industries slowly withering and getting taken over by their new Chinese competitors in what used to be their home market. If you remove uniforms from a soccer match, you can celebrate each individual player's goal. But the team that forgets they are (or should be) playing a team game will be obliterated.

iancmceachern 3y ago

This isn't that. This is engineers deliberately taking tech to somewhere where they know IP laws won't be enforced. It's not like I'm saying they can learn calculus here and then go to China and use calculus to design things. It's that I'm saying they design a very specific thing, a very specific way, for hire, then go make that exact specific thing, that same specific way. If it were in any other country but China, it wouldn't be allowed to happen.

cyanydeez 3y ago
Sounds like a thing unions might do better
barry-cotter 3y ago
> It's that I'm saying they design a very specific thing, a very specific way, for hire, then go make that exact specific thing, that same specific way. I really doubt this unless all the inputs are commoditised. Industrial espionage usually fails because if you don’t have the know how to make the tools that make the tools it’s difficult to impossible to literally copy it. Not saying what you’re saying doesn’t happen, it does, all the time. But usually the engineering is substantially different if only because different things are cheap or expensive, or just unavailable. > If it were in any other country but China, it wouldn't be allowed to happen. Historically, the US, Japan, Korea, Taiwan all did it. No doubt Vietnam does it now too. Not like they have an excellent civil legal system. Joys of working in developing countries.
- flakeoil 3y ago
  > if you don’t have the know how to make the tools that make the tools it’s difficult to impossible to literally copy it. Smart and knowledgable people in a certain field, but who are slightly stuck, can be helped by a few tiny details. If someone can provide a specific manual or piece of documentation, or just a photo copy or image of some key detail then those smart and knowledgable people can pass the hurdle and continue.
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    Exactly, and now days you can buy most tools you would need on ebay. Need a huge cnc milling machine? Ebay, Need an injection molding machine? Packaging equipment, whatever. Even medical equipment
the-dude 3y ago
> If it were in any other country but China, it wouldn't be allowed to happen. IIRC the USA did plenty of that.
- berniedurfee 3y ago
  That’s my understanding as well; that the Industrial Revolution in the US was very much based on IP from outside the US.
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    But was it state sponsored? My understanding is that it was mostly robber barrons doing their thing, which isn't really "The US", its more "People in the US".
    - mindslight 3y ago
      This may be the furthest I've seen the false dichotomy between government and corporations stretched.
      - iancmceachern 3y ago
        I'll admit the failures of the US government just much as anyone, am and will always be a tough critic.. But let's not forget the greater context here. We are talking about a communist country with very top down, state architected enterprises and actions with the USA, which is certainly not those things. The US isn't perfect, by any means, I'm not trying to say that. Context, that's what I'm trying to have us remember here.
        mindslight 3y ago
        How is that context supposed to be relevant to the point? That China is doing a poorer job by trying to direct the process centrally rather than something more nimble?
ak_111 3y ago
This feels like the debate between tax evasion and tax avoidance. What the engineer did here going to an IP lawless place is more like tax avoidance. It has a bad smell but he legally exploited a loophole in the international IP system if I understood correctly. Sort of migrating to a tax haven to avoid taxes. Unless there is something explicitly stated in your contract banning you from taking the "know-how" in your brains and use it elsewhere (so long as you don't breach any patent) then it sounds there is nothing technically wrong.
- fennecfoxy 3y ago
  Which is why there are export bans on plenty of things to China, the US Gov (I'm not American) rightfully understands what's going on under the table and the easiest way to curb theft of high technology is an outright ban (Nvidia products, etc). I think it's a cultural thing as well, some sort of hustle culture, as the Chinese citizens that moved to NZ when I grew up loved to flout rules & laws around things like the property markets etc - one big problem was Chinese nationals buying up as much NZ baby formula & milk poweder as they could get, hiking the price & selling/sending it to China, so much that NZ experienced shortages for Kiwi mothers trying to feed their babies, so much so that supermarkets had to instate a X per person policy. When I worked in one during 1st year uni I would get literally screamed at in Mandarin by angry and aggressive Chinese nationals with trolleys full of baby formula. And keep in mind that all of that started only because of the big scare where Chinese baby formula was found to have melamine in it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal) killing 6 babies, affecting hundreds of thousands. All because Sanlu's execs wanted more $$$ so they cut their product.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  It's less that it's explicitly legal, and more that it's not enforced or enforceable there right?
  - ak_111 3y ago
    Am not a lawyer or even a tax expert, just was noting that for non-experts in these domains this scenario look similar (China is doing to IP what tax havens did for taxes).
sametmax 3y ago
If you learn how to build a castel with a very specific era look and feel as an architect, would you not then be likely hired to build a similar castel elsewhere?
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  I Do this for a living, ave for 20 years. I've designed many "castles" with similar looks and feels, similar materials, they work similarly. But I've never built the exact same castle, with the exact same Floorplan, with the exact same plans. That's what I'm highlighting that I've seen several times. A cool aside, I love this song by Watsky called "cardboard castles". Having done this for 20 years (build "cardboard castles") I identify with it. https://youtu.be/FN1OR1aa2cM?si=0mFPuCtiVLp-Us1h https://youtu.be/FN1OR1aa2cM?si=0mFPuCtiVLp-Us1h
  - sentimentscan 3y ago
    Do you have any portfolio of those castles? I am quite interested in the long future for maybe building one

harles 3y ago

The espionage really is next level in China. It’s not just reconstructing software (that’s part of it) but stealing binaries (and source where they can) for everything along the way. I worked at a large tech co with an assembly line in China and experienced this first hand. A routine scan of one of our calibration machines turned up a Trojan with a copy of all calibration software squirreled away. Fortunately nothing is network connected there, but it was obvious someone was planning to come back for it. The stash had our calibration software and the factory’s proprietary control software on it. Both companies sent security to watch the machine for 48 hours straight until a hard drive shredder could be procured to mutually assure each party no software would leak. It was nuts, but apparently common.

prox 3y ago
How did this become a thing on a cultural scale? Like that everyone does it and it is almost expected as it were?
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  It's master planned by the government. Just Google "Chinese protectionist" and then any industry. The Chinese government has been actively targeting everything from CNC machine tools to medical devices and semiconductors for decades. Some industries with more success than others. Anything they import, especially industrial equipment like textile looms, cnc machines, semiconductor equipment, etc. There are big, long term, well funded pushes to manufacture indigenous versions of just about everything. Airplanes, jet engines, computer chips, industrial equipment, on and on
  - the-dude 3y ago
    Textile looms are particularly relevant : https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-europe https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-eur...
- kome 3y ago
  it's not espionage, it's a development strategy, and it's working well. it foster local knowledge, local know how and local production. the deal is: you can use our cheap labor force, but we can use your ideas

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> So an engineer learns how to make something, and then goes elsewhere to make it. It's not long till the capital class claims ownership of your brain too. /s

ComputerGuru 3y ago
I don’t think /s is needed. Tech firms already wish they could act that way, and if they aren’t, it’s only because they’re not able to.