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I've watched this happen. I've watched key, core engineers and technical leaders work for US and European companies, develop their next generation products, th

I've watched this happen. I've watched key, core engineers and technical leaders work for US and European companies, develop their next generation products, then turn around and design and develop essentially the exact same thing for the Chinese market. They then build a company, in China, that makes essentially the same product, but for the Chinese Market, and with Chinese investors, etc. Examples: Thoratec/Abbot Heartmate III & CH Biomedical Auris/Verb/J&J Robotic & Digital Solutions & Renovo Surgical The ironic thing, is that some of these companies after success in China are working to sell and be competitive in the US and Europe. It's not even secret or under the table anymore, it's overt and largely accepted as the way it is in our industry. A brave new world. The other factor, is that it is very very difficult for a foreign company to do business and protect their assets in China, so often the wise companies don't even try. They often just license their stuff for the Chinese market to a Chinese company. That way they at least have a chance of not having it all just stolen.

htss2013 3y ago
>it's overt and largely accepted as the way it is in our industry. A brave new world. What alternative is there? The only protection there ever was for taking business secrets was patent enforcement, civil lawsuits or prison. If a foreign government won't cooperate on any of those things, what can you do? The only answer humanity has ever come up with is something like a government intelligence agency, where everything is obfuscated by clearance levels and need to know compartmentalization, and any violations are handled criminally, with armies of full time counter espionage people. That just wouldn't work in the corporate world.
noobface 3y ago
Everyone should've seen what happened to Cisco and thought better, but short sighted execs focused only on next quarter gladly opened the gates and accepted the horse.
- swader999 3y ago
  Nortel too.
- Moru 3y ago
  Everyone did see it coming. Interviews of experts on TV, talked about at the coffee table at every industry in the west. But since the stockmarket demands constant growth we have to move production to china. And when the move is done, the CEO has a nice rep-sheet showing how much profits went up while he was working at the company and gets hired by the next one.
vkazanov 3y ago
So an engineer learns how to make something, and then goes elsewhere to make it. To be honest, the way you put ut, the story feels OK to me. There are many truly bad examples, e.g. the arm china story, but engineers doing their thing is not one of them.
- SenAnder 3y ago
  It "feels OK", stripped of context, but nevertheless results in your industries slowly withering and getting taken over by their new Chinese competitors in what used to be their home market. If you remove uniforms from a soccer match, you can celebrate each individual player's goal. But the team that forgets they are (or should be) playing a team game will be obliterated.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  This isn't that. This is engineers deliberately taking tech to somewhere where they know IP laws won't be enforced. It's not like I'm saying they can learn calculus here and then go to China and use calculus to design things. It's that I'm saying they design a very specific thing, a very specific way, for hire, then go make that exact specific thing, that same specific way. If it were in any other country but China, it wouldn't be allowed to happen.
  - cyanydeez 3y ago
    Sounds like a thing unions might do better
  - barry-cotter 3y ago
    > It's that I'm saying they design a very specific thing, a very specific way, for hire, then go make that exact specific thing, that same specific way. I really doubt this unless all the inputs are commoditised. Industrial espionage usually fails because if you don’t have the know how to make the tools that make the tools it’s difficult to impossible to literally copy it. Not saying what you’re saying doesn’t happen, it does, all the time. But usually the engineering is substantially different if only because different things are cheap or expensive, or just unavailable. > If it were in any other country but China, it wouldn't be allowed to happen. Historically, the US, Japan, Korea, Taiwan all did it. No doubt Vietnam does it now too. Not like they have an excellent civil legal system. Joys of working in developing countries.
canadianfella 3y ago
[dead]
nikau 3y ago
Terrible, such actions are only tolerable when the US do it via moral operations like operation paperclip.
- bbor 3y ago
  How is that related? Are you actually saying that the US was being unfair to Germany by stepping on their IP? Of all the criticisms of that program I’ve never heard “but won’t somebody think of the Germans” lol. Also, two wrongs don’t make a right, and 1945 was 2-3 scientific revolutions ago
  - nikau 3y ago
    I mean its still pretty hypocritical - the US is happy to take in literal Nazi war criminals to stay as a super power, yet they start clutching pearls if a developing country tries and poach some talent with IP knowledge.
    - RunSet 3y ago
      Not to say I subscribe to the notion of intellectual property, but I would expect military secrets to be treated differently than trade secrets for purposes of IP. Perhaps that is an American cultural tradition that China is unlikely to respect.
Lex-2008 3y ago
> some of these companies after success in China are working to sell and be competitive in the US and Europe. Just out of curiosity: can't these companies be sued by the IP holding company when they try to sell outside of China, and be forbidden to sell their products in US and Europe?
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  Yes, but by the time all that happens the patent protection is likely to have run out. Basically what I've seen is new tech is designed and released here, owns the market for 10 or so years, by then one of these companies in question has started to get momentum I the Chinese market, then 15 or so years after they start to think about coming back to this market, and by then the IP protection has run out.

htss2013 3y ago

>it's overt and largely accepted as the way it is in our industry. A brave new world. What alternative is there? The only protection there ever was for taking business secrets was patent enforcement, civil lawsuits or prison. If a foreign government won't cooperate on any of those things, what can you do? The only answer humanity has ever come up with is something like a government intelligence agency, where everything is obfuscated by clearance levels and need to know compartmentalization, and any violations are handled criminally, with armies of full time counter espionage people. That just wouldn't work in the corporate world.

noobface 3y ago

Everyone should've seen what happened to Cisco and thought better, but short sighted execs focused only on next quarter gladly opened the gates and accepted the horse.

swader999 3y ago
Nortel too.
Moru 3y ago
Everyone did see it coming. Interviews of experts on TV, talked about at the coffee table at every industry in the west. But since the stockmarket demands constant growth we have to move production to china. And when the move is done, the CEO has a nice rep-sheet showing how much profits went up while he was working at the company and gets hired by the next one.

vkazanov 3y ago

So an engineer learns how to make something, and then goes elsewhere to make it. To be honest, the way you put ut, the story feels OK to me. There are many truly bad examples, e.g. the arm china story, but engineers doing their thing is not one of them.

SenAnder 3y ago
It "feels OK", stripped of context, but nevertheless results in your industries slowly withering and getting taken over by their new Chinese competitors in what used to be their home market. If you remove uniforms from a soccer match, you can celebrate each individual player's goal. But the team that forgets they are (or should be) playing a team game will be obliterated.
iancmceachern 3y ago
This isn't that. This is engineers deliberately taking tech to somewhere where they know IP laws won't be enforced. It's not like I'm saying they can learn calculus here and then go to China and use calculus to design things. It's that I'm saying they design a very specific thing, a very specific way, for hire, then go make that exact specific thing, that same specific way. If it were in any other country but China, it wouldn't be allowed to happen.
- cyanydeez 3y ago
  Sounds like a thing unions might do better
- barry-cotter 3y ago
  > It's that I'm saying they design a very specific thing, a very specific way, for hire, then go make that exact specific thing, that same specific way. I really doubt this unless all the inputs are commoditised. Industrial espionage usually fails because if you don’t have the know how to make the tools that make the tools it’s difficult to impossible to literally copy it. Not saying what you’re saying doesn’t happen, it does, all the time. But usually the engineering is substantially different if only because different things are cheap or expensive, or just unavailable. > If it were in any other country but China, it wouldn't be allowed to happen. Historically, the US, Japan, Korea, Taiwan all did it. No doubt Vietnam does it now too. Not like they have an excellent civil legal system. Joys of working in developing countries.

canadianfella 3y ago

[dead]

nikau 3y ago

Terrible, such actions are only tolerable when the US do it via moral operations like operation paperclip.

bbor 3y ago
How is that related? Are you actually saying that the US was being unfair to Germany by stepping on their IP? Of all the criticisms of that program I’ve never heard “but won’t somebody think of the Germans” lol. Also, two wrongs don’t make a right, and 1945 was 2-3 scientific revolutions ago
- nikau 3y ago
  I mean its still pretty hypocritical - the US is happy to take in literal Nazi war criminals to stay as a super power, yet they start clutching pearls if a developing country tries and poach some talent with IP knowledge.
  - RunSet 3y ago
    Not to say I subscribe to the notion of intellectual property, but I would expect military secrets to be treated differently than trade secrets for purposes of IP. Perhaps that is an American cultural tradition that China is unlikely to respect.

Lex-2008 3y ago

> some of these companies after success in China are working to sell and be competitive in the US and Europe. Just out of curiosity: can't these companies be sued by the IP holding company when they try to sell outside of China, and be forbidden to sell their products in US and Europe?

iancmceachern 3y ago
Yes, but by the time all that happens the patent protection is likely to have run out. Basically what I've seen is new tech is designed and released here, owns the market for 10 or so years, by then one of these companies in question has started to get momentum I the Chinese market, then 15 or so years after they start to think about coming back to this market, and by then the IP protection has run out.