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> During the 2008 financial crisis, the UAW made major concessions to help auto companies get back on their feet. Workers are still feeling the effects of those

by altacc 3y ago

> During the 2008 financial crisis, the UAW made major concessions to help auto companies get back on their feet. Workers are still feeling the effects of those concessions to this day... > Collectively, the Big Three automakers have seen their profits soar This is why you need unions. Most businesses will happily screw over workers whenever they can to maximize profits and the workers are lucky if they get peanuts back when they're swimming in cash. Ford makes the hyperbolic claim that agreeing to UAW demands would bankrupt them as it would cost $15 billion. Their profit in the last 12 months is $25 billion. The maths is more complex than simply 25-15 but shows how companies will obviously lie to protect their shareholder profits.

rahimnathwani 3y ago
Their profit in the last 12 months is $25 billion. No, Ford made only about $4bn in the last 12 months: https://ycharts.com/companies/F/net_income_ttm https://ycharts.com/companies/F/net_income_ttm You might have googled 'gross profit' which isn't the same thing, as it doesn't account for the many costs of running a capital-intensive business, like machines and stuff.
- gamblor956 3y ago
  No, that's 4bn net profit for the last quarter. The table below the chart makes it abundantly clear that they are reporting quarterly numbers.
  - rahimnathwani 3y ago
    No, it's the 12 months to the end of the last quarter. The title of the table you reference makes it clear they're reporting TTM numbers. TTM = Trailing Twelve Months In general, the frequency of reporting doesn't have to match the measurement period. For example, inflation is often reported monthly, even though it measures the change in the level of prices since a year ago.
- kawhah 3y ago
  Well what's the profit of the other two? Does it add up to $21 billion?
- carlob 3y ago
  I don't understand why you are looking at net profit, taxes are computed after payroll costs are taken out. Sure there will be some interests to be paid, buy I don't see how gross is more wrong than met here.
  - rendang 3y ago
    If you want to make that argument than use earnings before taxes, not gross profit which excludes the cost of everything from operations to debt service
  - jjallen 3y ago
    Operating margin is the correct pre tax number to look at. It deducts operating expenses but not interest and taxes.
qp11 3y ago
I dont see how this makes the case for why unions are needed. It makes the opposite case of how ineffective unions are against the hyper efficient corporate robot class. The corporate robot is programmed to undercut labor if they cant generate revenues any other way (and some do it anyway). If the robot doesn't, it will be replaced by a robot that can. The unions cant reprogram the robots no matter what, cause they are not the programmers. The programmers are the banks and financial system. The banks and financial system are long overdue a gigantic kick in the head. But thats not happening cuz people are so distracted and scatter focused on the wrong stuff.
- baq 3y ago
  unions are for what workers what HR is for the corporation. negotiating wages is only one of the things that they should be doing.
senttoschool 3y ago
>This is why you need unions. What happens if the unions succeed in draining the profits, corporate has less money to invest in R&D, and a foreign efficient automaker comes in and takes all the market share away from the union-led automakers? What happens then?
- IntelMiner 3y ago
  The "free market" takes its course and unionized labor is (sadly) replaced by labor operating in companies with far worse tracks on things that detract from profits like "human rights" or "people not commiting suicide over work" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
  - aurareturn 3y ago
    So basically, go into protectionism mode?
  - NonEUCitizen 3y ago
    Every suicide, inside Foxconn or outside, is a tragedy. But re: implying causation, note that the wikipedia article you cited mentions: "ABC News[49] and The Economist[50] both conducted comparisons and found that although the number of workplace suicides at Foxconn was large in absolute terms, the suicide rate was actually lower than the overall suicide rate of China[51] or the United States."
- Tade0 3y ago
  If there are any profits to speak of, then clearly either already enough is spent on R&D or nothing at all.
  - aurareturn 3y ago
    Profits will fund future R&D.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    > If there are any profits to speak of, then clearly either already enough is spent on R&D or nothing at all. What? If you spent more on R&D you might make more sales, even if you are already profitable. You might also still be profitable (perhaps less so) if you spent less on R&D and made fewer sales. The sales numbers determine how many workers you need to make the stuff you're selling though. It's also a common misunderstanding that a company is sustainable as long as its profit is above zero. It's only sustainable if its profit is above the market rate of return, because otherwise investors would make more money by shutting down the company and selling off its assets. If shareholders don't get a competitive return then they don't continue to lend you their money and you don't have a company. The management of the company can't change the economics.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
gwd 3y ago
> This is why you need unions. Most businesses will happily screw over workers whenever they can to maximize profits and the workers are lucky if they get peanuts back when they're swimming in cash. The funny thing is, they might behave this way even if the management of all the car companies actually agreed with the unions and wanted to give them a 40% increase. Suppose, hypothetically, that most of the management are actually good people who want to share their profits, but don't know what the management of the other companies think. Here are their options: 1. Raise worker wages in line with profits. 1a. The other companies do the same. Everyone's happy, no strike. 1b. The other companies don't do the same. Your company now makes significantly less profit; it's punished by the market -- stock price goes down, meaning you're at a risk of either a hostile takeover, or the board of directors firing you and getting someone else who's more ruthless (and will punish workers even more). 2. Talk with the management at other companies and convince them to raise wages. Actually, this is illegal, and you could face really steep legal fees or consequences. 3. Keep wages the same, and hope the unions do their job and call a strike. Basically, #3 is the least risky option.

by altacc 3y ago

rahimnathwani 3y ago

Their profit in the last 12 months is $25 billion. No, Ford made only about $4bn in the last 12 months: https://ycharts.com/companies/F/net_income_ttm https://ycharts.com/companies/F/net_income_ttm You might have googled 'gross profit' which isn't the same thing, as it doesn't account for the many costs of running a capital-intensive business, like machines and stuff.

gamblor956 3y ago
No, that's 4bn net profit for the last quarter. The table below the chart makes it abundantly clear that they are reporting quarterly numbers.
- rahimnathwani 3y ago
  No, it's the 12 months to the end of the last quarter. The title of the table you reference makes it clear they're reporting TTM numbers. TTM = Trailing Twelve Months In general, the frequency of reporting doesn't have to match the measurement period. For example, inflation is often reported monthly, even though it measures the change in the level of prices since a year ago.
kawhah 3y ago
Well what's the profit of the other two? Does it add up to $21 billion?
carlob 3y ago
I don't understand why you are looking at net profit, taxes are computed after payroll costs are taken out. Sure there will be some interests to be paid, buy I don't see how gross is more wrong than met here.
- rendang 3y ago
  If you want to make that argument than use earnings before taxes, not gross profit which excludes the cost of everything from operations to debt service
- jjallen 3y ago
  Operating margin is the correct pre tax number to look at. It deducts operating expenses but not interest and taxes.

qp11 3y ago

I dont see how this makes the case for why unions are needed. It makes the opposite case of how ineffective unions are against the hyper efficient corporate robot class. The corporate robot is programmed to undercut labor if they cant generate revenues any other way (and some do it anyway). If the robot doesn't, it will be replaced by a robot that can. The unions cant reprogram the robots no matter what, cause they are not the programmers. The programmers are the banks and financial system. The banks and financial system are long overdue a gigantic kick in the head. But thats not happening cuz people are so distracted and scatter focused on the wrong stuff.

baq 3y ago
unions are for what workers what HR is for the corporation. negotiating wages is only one of the things that they should be doing.

senttoschool 3y ago

>This is why you need unions. What happens if the unions succeed in draining the profits, corporate has less money to invest in R&D, and a foreign efficient automaker comes in and takes all the market share away from the union-led automakers? What happens then?

IntelMiner 3y ago
The "free market" takes its course and unionized labor is (sadly) replaced by labor operating in companies with far worse tracks on things that detract from profits like "human rights" or "people not commiting suicide over work" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
- aurareturn 3y ago
  So basically, go into protectionism mode?
- NonEUCitizen 3y ago
  Every suicide, inside Foxconn or outside, is a tragedy. But re: implying causation, note that the wikipedia article you cited mentions: "ABC News[49] and The Economist[50] both conducted comparisons and found that although the number of workplace suicides at Foxconn was large in absolute terms, the suicide rate was actually lower than the overall suicide rate of China[51] or the United States."
Tade0 3y ago
If there are any profits to speak of, then clearly either already enough is spent on R&D or nothing at all.
- aurareturn 3y ago
  Profits will fund future R&D.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > If there are any profits to speak of, then clearly either already enough is spent on R&D or nothing at all. What? If you spent more on R&D you might make more sales, even if you are already profitable. You might also still be profitable (perhaps less so) if you spent less on R&D and made fewer sales. The sales numbers determine how many workers you need to make the stuff you're selling though. It's also a common misunderstanding that a company is sustainable as long as its profit is above zero. It's only sustainable if its profit is above the market rate of return, because otherwise investors would make more money by shutting down the company and selling off its assets. If shareholders don't get a competitive return then they don't continue to lend you their money and you don't have a company. The management of the company can't change the economics.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

gwd 3y ago

> This is why you need unions. Most businesses will happily screw over workers whenever they can to maximize profits and the workers are lucky if they get peanuts back when they're swimming in cash. The funny thing is, they might behave this way even if the management of all the car companies actually agreed with the unions and wanted to give them a 40% increase. Suppose, hypothetically, that most of the management are actually good people who want to share their profits, but don't know what the management of the other companies think. Here are their options: 1. Raise worker wages in line with profits. 1a. The other companies do the same. Everyone's happy, no strike. 1b. The other companies don't do the same. Your company now makes significantly less profit; it's punished by the market -- stock price goes down, meaning you're at a risk of either a hostile takeover, or the board of directors firing you and getting someone else who's more ruthless (and will punish workers even more). 2. Talk with the management at other companies and convince them to raise wages. Actually, this is illegal, and you could face really steep legal fees or consequences. 3. Keep wages the same, and hope the unions do their job and call a strike. Basically, #3 is the least risky option.