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I'll write a dissenting opinion, feel free to disagree: It's not only about Smart Devices, it's a direct shot at the Garmin ANT+ Ecosystem and capturing the fit

I'll write a dissenting opinion, feel free to disagree: It's not only about Smart Devices, it's a direct shot at the Garmin ANT+ Ecosystem and capturing the fitness market. Take Cycling: ANT+ Radio is the defacto standard for cyclists sensors. Everything from power meters to heart rate monitors use ANT+ because of its incredible battery life, ease of connectivity, and low latency. Yes there are BLE versions of everything, but they absolutely suck batteries. I change the batteries in my speed/cadence sensors maybe once every 18 months. Apple proved it can already reach these battery lifetimes with AirTags. Apple typically enters a market and destroys competitor markets by introducing a new protocol and only supporting the new standard, fragmenting the market, then holding out until competitors run out of cash, at which point they can do whatever they way. They're often quite successful with this, although they recently had to admit defeat with USB-C.

perryizgr8 3y ago
Already new samsung models are omitting ANT+. Every Galaxy flagship until the S10 had it, but my S23 doesn't. So I think the ANT ecosystem might have been going downhill on its own already.
snotrockets 3y ago
ANT+ is still wildly used, but most (if not all) recent models of sport sensors has both ANT+ and BLE radios.
lxgr 3y ago
Is there really a meaningful theoretical difference between BLE and ANT in battery life, or are these just inefficient implementations? BLE can definitely last for many months on a CR2032 battery, in my experience – I use cheap Bluetooth thermometers/hygrometers with a Raspberry Pi running Home Assistant like that.
- exabrial 3y ago
  I’m not an expert, but if you refresh BLE sensors at ANT+ intervals the battery life is sad. It could be incompetence rather than a protocol definition problem, but the result is the same for the consumer: ant+ is just a way better experience
tw04 3y ago
>It's not only about Smart Devices, it's a direct shot at the Garmin ANT+ Ecosystem and capturing the fitness market. I guess anything is possible, but as a Garmin and Apple fan I just don't see it happening. When the Apple Watch Ultra is bragging about 36 hour battery life, I don't see how they push Garmin out of the fitness market. Garmin watches measure their battery life in weeks (or MONTHS in low power mode) - I can't see my primary fitness device being a paper weight if I forget to charge it for one night.
- afavour 3y ago
  > I can't see my primary fitness device being a paper weight if I forget to charge it for one night. But Apple Watch owners are already very used to charging their watch every night. I think the aim would be that your "primary fitness device" is the watch you already have for other purposes, so while it's not a direct attack on Garmin's product line they'd be hoping to vacuum up a lot of casual users who might otherwise have bought a Garmin device.
- exabrial 3y ago
  I just got back from 7 days in the wilderness with my Epix Gen2 51mm. I have 72% battery life left. Would have been higher but I used the built-in on it flashlight several nights.
- vuln 3y ago
  > I can't see my primary fitness device being a paper weight if I forget to charge it for one night. I just throw my ultra on the charger while I shower. 20-30 minute charge. I haven’t had the watch completely drop to 0% in its entire lifespan ~1 year 8 months. It’s simple and I never think or worry about it. I also have almost all notifications turned off on the watch. It helps with distractions and battery life too!
  - ls612 3y ago
    The early watches (or at least my old series 3) had issues staying powered through the day if you did workouts or other intense (for the watch cpu) activities. My series 7 has never come close to zero in the two years I’ve had it.
parker_mountain 3y ago
> Yes there are BLE versions of everything, but they absolutely suck batteries. > Apple proved it can already reach these battery lifetimes with AirTags. And they did it with BLE. Thread is on 2.4ghz and on its way to becoming a de facto standard by basically be included in every major bluetooth SOC for free. Simple as. I don't think this is some direct strategic move, so much as a general movement of the industry that Apple will capitalize on.
- kritiko 3y ago
  It's definitely a strategic move inasmuch as Apple is a sponsor of Thread.
duskwuff 3y ago
> They're often quite successful with this, although they recently had to admit defeat with USB-C. Painting this as an adversarial scenario doesn't really hold up to scrutiny; Apple was heavily involved in the development of USB-C.
- capableweb 3y ago
  > Apple was heavily involved in the development of USB-C. Might be, but they really dragged their feet using it for their phones instead of Lightning, and I think I remember Apple saying they couldn't use USB-C and have the phones remain as thin as they wanted them. But, as soon as regulation appeared that they have to, suddenly it became possible.
- akhosravian 3y ago
  The kind of comment that probably goes with someone being outraged apple ships a USB-C only laptop in 2015. Arguably they kick started adoption of usb C by creating an early market for USB-C peripherals. Companies aren’t cartoon characters that only do good or bad things, and they also aren’t monoliths with a single brain making coherent decisions.
  - acdha 3y ago
    The other thing is support costs. People sometimes criticize Apple for sticking with Lightning apparently unaware that it predated USB-C by multiple product generations: once you’ve shipped hundreds of millions of anything and have a bunch of third-party vendors, switching is going to be unavoidably slow and messy.
    - solardev 3y ago
      But they were simultaneously making Macs and ipads with usb-c?
      - acdha 3y ago
        Not for years. Lighting came out before USB-C was standardized: September 12th, 2012 vs. August 11th, 2014 (final spec) and January 7th, 2015 (first shipping device, the Nokia N1).
jdietrich 3y ago
>Yes there are BLE versions of everything, but they absolutely suck batteries. That's just not true. ANT+ is rapidly moving towards obsolescence because of the popularity of BLE. ANT+ is a proprietary standard controlled by Garmin, so the rest of the industry (i.e. Garmin's competitors) have eagerly embraced an open alternative. Nearly all current-generation fitness sensors support both BLE and ANT+ and have indistinguishable battery life with either. If you're implementing an ANT+ sensor in 2023, your only reasonable choice of chip is the Nordic Semi NRF52/53 series, which also has BLE and Thread support. BLE is essentially a freebie for the manufacturer and offers a lot of extra value to the customer, which is why even Garmin sells dual-standard ANT+/BLE sensors.

perryizgr8 3y ago

Already new samsung models are omitting ANT+. Every Galaxy flagship until the S10 had it, but my S23 doesn't. So I think the ANT ecosystem might have been going downhill on its own already.

snotrockets 3y ago

ANT+ is still wildly used, but most (if not all) recent models of sport sensors has both ANT+ and BLE radios.

lxgr 3y ago

Is there really a meaningful theoretical difference between BLE and ANT in battery life, or are these just inefficient implementations? BLE can definitely last for many months on a CR2032 battery, in my experience – I use cheap Bluetooth thermometers/hygrometers with a Raspberry Pi running Home Assistant like that.

exabrial 3y ago
I’m not an expert, but if you refresh BLE sensors at ANT+ intervals the battery life is sad. It could be incompetence rather than a protocol definition problem, but the result is the same for the consumer: ant+ is just a way better experience

tw04 3y ago

>It's not only about Smart Devices, it's a direct shot at the Garmin ANT+ Ecosystem and capturing the fitness market. I guess anything is possible, but as a Garmin and Apple fan I just don't see it happening. When the Apple Watch Ultra is bragging about 36 hour battery life, I don't see how they push Garmin out of the fitness market. Garmin watches measure their battery life in weeks (or MONTHS in low power mode) - I can't see my primary fitness device being a paper weight if I forget to charge it for one night.

afavour 3y ago
> I can't see my primary fitness device being a paper weight if I forget to charge it for one night. But Apple Watch owners are already very used to charging their watch every night. I think the aim would be that your "primary fitness device" is the watch you already have for other purposes, so while it's not a direct attack on Garmin's product line they'd be hoping to vacuum up a lot of casual users who might otherwise have bought a Garmin device.
exabrial 3y ago
I just got back from 7 days in the wilderness with my Epix Gen2 51mm. I have 72% battery life left. Would have been higher but I used the built-in on it flashlight several nights.
vuln 3y ago
> I can't see my primary fitness device being a paper weight if I forget to charge it for one night. I just throw my ultra on the charger while I shower. 20-30 minute charge. I haven’t had the watch completely drop to 0% in its entire lifespan ~1 year 8 months. It’s simple and I never think or worry about it. I also have almost all notifications turned off on the watch. It helps with distractions and battery life too!
- ls612 3y ago
  The early watches (or at least my old series 3) had issues staying powered through the day if you did workouts or other intense (for the watch cpu) activities. My series 7 has never come close to zero in the two years I’ve had it.

parker_mountain 3y ago

> Yes there are BLE versions of everything, but they absolutely suck batteries. > Apple proved it can already reach these battery lifetimes with AirTags. And they did it with BLE. Thread is on 2.4ghz and on its way to becoming a de facto standard by basically be included in every major bluetooth SOC for free. Simple as. I don't think this is some direct strategic move, so much as a general movement of the industry that Apple will capitalize on.

kritiko 3y ago
It's definitely a strategic move inasmuch as Apple is a sponsor of Thread.

duskwuff 3y ago

> They're often quite successful with this, although they recently had to admit defeat with USB-C. Painting this as an adversarial scenario doesn't really hold up to scrutiny; Apple was heavily involved in the development of USB-C.

capableweb 3y ago
> Apple was heavily involved in the development of USB-C. Might be, but they really dragged their feet using it for their phones instead of Lightning, and I think I remember Apple saying they couldn't use USB-C and have the phones remain as thin as they wanted them. But, as soon as regulation appeared that they have to, suddenly it became possible.
akhosravian 3y ago
The kind of comment that probably goes with someone being outraged apple ships a USB-C only laptop in 2015. Arguably they kick started adoption of usb C by creating an early market for USB-C peripherals. Companies aren’t cartoon characters that only do good or bad things, and they also aren’t monoliths with a single brain making coherent decisions.
- acdha 3y ago
  The other thing is support costs. People sometimes criticize Apple for sticking with Lightning apparently unaware that it predated USB-C by multiple product generations: once you’ve shipped hundreds of millions of anything and have a bunch of third-party vendors, switching is going to be unavoidably slow and messy.
  - solardev 3y ago
    But they were simultaneously making Macs and ipads with usb-c?
    - acdha 3y ago
      Not for years. Lighting came out before USB-C was standardized: September 12th, 2012 vs. August 11th, 2014 (final spec) and January 7th, 2015 (first shipping device, the Nokia N1).

jdietrich 3y ago

>Yes there are BLE versions of everything, but they absolutely suck batteries. That's just not true. ANT+ is rapidly moving towards obsolescence because of the popularity of BLE. ANT+ is a proprietary standard controlled by Garmin, so the rest of the industry (i.e. Garmin's competitors) have eagerly embraced an open alternative. Nearly all current-generation fitness sensors support both BLE and ANT+ and have indistinguishable battery life with either. If you're implementing an ANT+ sensor in 2023, your only reasonable choice of chip is the Nordic Semi NRF52/53 series, which also has BLE and Thread support. BLE is essentially a freebie for the manufacturer and offers a lot of extra value to the customer, which is why even Garmin sells dual-standard ANT+/BLE sensors.