9 ms·

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs

• afavour 3y ago
  > I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work Definitely something that is in no danger of changing at any point in the future! What a relief for all of us! We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. I can understand being wary of unions but to suggest they’d provide absolutely nothing feels like a failure of imagination.
  • baron816 3y ago
    It will change if it becomes harder for companies to hire and fire people, or become less competitive.
  • zaphar 3y ago
    Software engineer is not the only job I've every had. I've been the janitor sweeping floors, I've been the guy on the assembly line. I've literally supported my family by working day labor with no certainty of continued employment. I have always been able to find a place and prove myself worthy of the pay without sacrificing my health, or family time. I've quit jobs when I no longer felt like it was the right place for me. I don't think it's anyone's responsibility but mine to ensure that I can provide for my family. I have all the self-dignity I need to stand up for myself and my family. I have built the support structures I need to survive rocky periods. None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else. So yes, I think a certain amount of self-responsibility and self-reliance is good for you. I don't buy into the idea the most important dynamic is relative power between employees who may or may not share my values and an employer. Instead I buy into the idea that self-respect, self-reliance and community support structur is far more important and I would rather focus on that than trying to balance the power dynamic at a particular workplace.
    • pjc50 3y ago
      > None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else. "Disabled workers do not exist"
      • vasco 3y ago
        You could argue for disability protections instead of unions if that's your true position. Arguing for a .01% case to make a 100% rule is disingenuous.
    • afavour 3y ago
      > community support structure ...what do you think a union is? I feel as though you're imagining the Big Bad Union that big companies love to describe. A union can be in whatever form you wish it to be. If software engineers wish to band together to form a union solely to improve their health insurance then they could just do that.
      • zaphar 3y ago
        I don't get to pick unions. I get to pick my community support structures. Who I marry, which church,friend group,local community group I join? Those are all voluntary. Unions are not voluntary so they can't really be a community support group in the sense I mean.
        • afavour 3y ago
          Of course you do, you can choose to not take a job with an attached union you don't like. As you said, there are plenty of opportunities out there!
          • zaphar 3y ago
            You are correct! But we are discussing why I personally would vote against one at an employer. It would take an otherwise reasonable and enjoyable employer and turn them into a place I no longer want to work.
  • Aurornis 3y ago
    > Definitely something that is in no danger of changing at any point in the future! Then how about we cross that bridge when we get there rather than trying to optimize today’s situation for potential problems that might happen in the future? > We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. And we already have evidence that the problem didn’t require a union to solve.
  • lapcat 3y ago
    > We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... The irony here is that the tech companies are willing to organize into a kind of union in order to promote their interests, but the tech workers aren't.
    • peteradio 3y ago
      > organize into a kind of union That's one way to describe an illegal conspiracy
      • lapcat 3y ago
        Yes. On the other hand, there are plenty of legal business groups: trade associations, chamber of commerce, etc.
• MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
  Also, labour unions are ammoral: https://www.richardhanania.com/p/why-labor-unions-are-evil https://www.richardhanania.com/p/why-labor-unions-are-evil
  • anildash 3y ago
    Can't think of a stronger argument for organizing than the fact that white supremacists hate it when it happens. It's good to do things that antagonize and infuriate white supremacists.
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  • acdha 3y ago
    That name sounds familiar: it’s the guy who writes white-supremacist articles for neo-nazi sites: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty-issues/academic-freedom/2023/08/10/hananias-name-gone-ut-austin-center-after-expose https://www.insidehighered.com/news/faculty-issues/academic-...
  • jubalfh 3y ago
    why, yes, go defenestrate yourself too.
• dfxm12 3y ago
  But you already enjoy many benefits already brought about by unions that you did not pay dues for, like weekends off, ending child labor, 40 hr work week, 8 hr work day, benefits around health care, unemployment and more.
  • dzikimarian 3y ago
    I also enjoy miners union that influences politics in my country in ways I don't like.
  • baron816 3y ago
    Unions have also perpetuated racism, sexism, xenophobia, organized crime, government corruption, etc. It’s not all sunshine and lollipops. America abandoned unions for a reason.
    • dfxm12 3y ago
      America abandoned unions for a reason. It's been a concerted effort of corporate capitalists: buying & influencing media outlets, lobbying, offshoring, etc.
      • cmiles74 3y ago
        There are many unions in the US. My partner is a member of a union and has much better healthcare and, overall, a better benefit package than I do. They work at the state university.
      • AnimalMuppet 3y ago
        So? Unions also bought and influenced media outlets. They also lobbied. It's not like unions just sat there while management poisoned the country's mind against unions. Unions were not able to make a compelling case. They had every chance to do so, starting with them being the default option in many industries. America abandoned unions for a reason. It may have taken a concerted effort by corporate capitalists to get there, but that's not why. "Why" is because more and more people felt that the unions were not a net positive for them.
• GoToRO 3y ago
  I'm not hungry therefore nobody is hungry.
  • jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg 3y ago
    Which tech workers are hungry exactly?
    • mplewis 3y ago
      The ones outside of your metropolitan area. There are tech workers around the world, not just in Silicon Valley, and they are subject to all sorts of economic conditions.
• randy5235 3y ago
  What makes you feel that a union wouldn’t represent your interests? Do you really believe that corporations will continue paying us well any longer than they absolutely have to? As soon as an ai or low code split comes along that can replace junior and mid level engineers, those jobs will get harder and harder to find. The rest of us will have to shoulder the responsibility of “cleaning” after those solutions and the additional work of not having a “pipeline” to continue growing better software engineers.
  • abigail95 3y ago
    You have very very heavy lifting to do if you're trying to prove a productivity improvement leads to a worse outcome. Farming automation and the green revolution didn't make us all unemployed - it meant 90% of us could do something else instead of farming. We used the productivity to just invent new forms of work that weren't possible and aren't possible in a lower productivity economy.
    • pjc50 3y ago
      Outcome for whom, though? We can use fancy words like "Pareto" or we can argue that it doesn't matter if a productivity improvement gives a billionaire more toys if everyone else is experiencing smaller houses and a worse public environment.
      • nonethewiser 3y ago
        > Outcome for whom, though? Everyone who is not a slave, serf, or subsistence farmer
      • AnimalMuppet 3y ago
        One thing we're not experiencing is smaller houses. Compare now to the 1950s or the 1920s or the 1890s. Productivity improvements have not led to smaller houses. Empirically proven.
    • nonethewiser 3y ago
      > Farming automation and the green revolution didn't make us all unemployed - it meant 90% of us could do something else instead of farming. There was actually a lot of fear that there would be mass starvation and competition for food because food production could not match population increase. It was an existential threat, much like how we look at global warming. And that fear today? Gone, and most people never even knew it existed.
• lapcat 3y ago
  > I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, because they've been burned out by their former employer.
  • vasco 3y ago
    How do unions help with those? - Do unions enforce remote work? - Do unions enforce an offer letter to turn into actual employment for someone who isn't even a member yet (they haven't signed anything)? - Do unions make people have a better handle on their mental health and do companies with unions have lower rates of burnout in their workforces?
    • shortrounddev2 3y ago
      Unions are democratic organizations. If those things are important to you, you can speak up at a union meeting
      • Jensson 3y ago
        People voted not to have a union, so apparently democracy doesn't get you what you want, at least in your case.
        • shortrounddev2 3y ago
          In most states in the US you are not required to join the union if your workplace votes for it
          • Jensson 3y ago
            But you can't form a union if they vote against it, which is why you are here arguing with people. So we here we have clear proof that even if you spend years arguing it doesn't necessarily lead to the democratic results you want. Individual bargaining however seems to work very well, lots of people get what they want that way much faster and easier than any democratic process. And that is why people vote to not have unions. The moment developers have a cause they can agree on, they will start to vote for unions. And no it isn't too late at that point, rather it is too early to vote for a union unless you have a cause you collectively care about.