8 ms·

Diamonds are losing their allure

82 points by j-a-a-p 3y ago

raverbashing 3y ago
Good! They're mostly a marketing ploy by DeBeers and other companies to push overpriced stuff Get a moassanite or a synthetic diamond. Engagement rings with a stone are not even a thing outside of the US it seems
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  If you want a rare rock, get a nice colored gemstone. They are much rarer than diamonds and often have a lot more character.
  - abirch 3y ago
    You're right about gemstones. I saw the lab grown stuff coming a while ago didn't want to spend money on diamonds: I wanted gemstones and not to throw away money. My now wife wanted a diamond so I caved. I did add emeralds but wish that the ring was mostly gemstones.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    This said, if it's going to be worn commonly, check into the hardness/brittleness of the stone you are getting.
- g_delgado14 3y ago
  As a latino I can confidently say that diamond engagement rings are extremely coveted in latin america
  - mysterydip 3y ago
    Can you shed some light on why that is? I'm assuming value/cost to acquire?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - diego_moita 3y ago
    > in latin america Well, define "latin america". This place has huge cultural differences. Culturally and ethnically we're even more diverse than the U.S. In parts and some social circles of Latin America, closer to the U.S. marketing, diamond engagement rings are coveted, indeed. But it is not everywhere.
  - silveira 3y ago
    I'm originally from Brazil and the first time I heard about diamond engagement rings where when I moved to the US. It's basically a scam.
- secondcoming 3y ago
  Stones are still a thing in the UK and Ireland
- pers0n 3y ago
  Exactly, before like the 1920s people just gave gold rings. It’s all marketing, probably the most successful one ever
  - dylan604 3y ago
    It's up there. But does it compete with Christmas?
- Tade0 3y ago
  My SO got an engagement iPad. The jewelry aspect is in the sapphire glass shielding the camera. It still has better resale value than an engagement ring with the same original price.
  - henry2023 3y ago
    I'd rather have an engagement poem than an engagement iPad. I could say the former is priceless.
    - Tade0 3y ago
      True, but the original point of an engagement ring was for it to be a store of value should the fiancee perish unexpectedly, so I was aiming for that.
devnullbrain 3y ago
>American couples date for about three years before getting engaged, and thanks to covid-19 very few people were out and about meeting potential husbands or wives in 2020. An unusually small number of people are probably getting engaged this year. And all the people who would have got married during 2020 but couldn't?
- pelagicAustral 3y ago
  Well, I'm going to take a leap of faith and guess that a significant portion of those split during/because of the pandemic.
xyzelement 3y ago
Totally cool and not everyone's cup of tea. Wasn't mine when I was growing up. But I married a woman who grew up more in that type of sphere. I ended up having a lot of fun diamond shopping in the upstairs office of a dealer in the diamond district in NYC, learning a lot, connecting to the stone, etc. My wife loved it and I love seeing the ring on her hand. If the market value of it goes to zero and it's just a sentimental thing we share and then give to our daughter, I got my money's worth. Obviously wouldn't have done it if I couldn't afford it etc
- willcipriano 3y ago
  A bit sexist though isn't it? This is one thing men should no longer feel obligated to do, in the name of equality.
  - Ylpertnodi 3y ago
    Not if written by a woman.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      In the same sex weddings I've attended, both parties had the same or similar rings. One party didn't get a ring that was wildly more expensive than the other.
  - keenmaster 3y ago
    You’re dunking on a fictional hyper-woke straw man in response to someone sharing a wholesome anecdote about doing something nice for their wife. Lol.
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      Do you have a good argument why this tradition should stand or are you just going to make assumptions about me?
      - 3y ago
arkad 3y ago
Copy of the article without the paywall: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-diamonds-losing-allure-203325549.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-diamonds-losing-allure-20...
cvccvroomvroom 3y ago
Boycott the cartel and their resource curse/slavery/conflict diamonds. There are plenty of other ways besides advertising-manufactured material expressions of commitment. Make your own rings.
- rs999gti 3y ago
  This doesn't work unless you can get women on board. There is still significant demand from them for engagement rings.
r3trohack3r 3y ago
From what I understand about diamonds they’re completely uninteresting to me. The way you measure how valuable a diamond is? Purity. The way you tell a lab made diamond from a “real” diamond? Purity. If it’s too pure it’s fake. There is this weird market where you want the purist diamond you can find, but not too pure. So you want some imperfections, just the perfect number of imperfections. Too many imperfections and it’s low quality. Too few imperfections and it’s worthless enough to grind to dust and use on consumable parts for power tools. The modern jewelry market is also substantially different than what past generations taught me jewelry was. To them, jewelry was meant to be a value store. You purchase a valuable ring, the stone and metal held their value and you or your heirs could sell it later if times were tough. Now jewelry seems more like buying a new car. It loses half its value when you drive it off the lot.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > Too few imperfections and it’s worthless enough to grind to dust and use on consumable parts for power tools. Industrial diamonds have been important for much longer than synthetic gem-quality diamonds have. Abrasive tools need diamonds, but they don't need to be attractive, so they aren't.
  - XorNot 3y ago
    Cheap industrial diamond tooling is one of my favourite things about living in the future. Just incredibly useful.
- BurningFrog 3y ago
  At least gold still keeps its value, while looking good/expensive.
- pizzaknife 3y ago
  I dont have a dog in this fight but hilariously the argument //for imperfection// i see here: People are flawed, damaged and utterly fragile. Is a "pure diamond" the projection of unrealistic expectations? Legal disclosures: - I am married (for much longer than the bell curve would suggest) - I did buy a diamond - I did stress about spending that money - I don't see the diamond as any real asset (financially or otherwise) - I bought said diamond AFTER i asked my SO's patriarch for permission - I DID NOT receive a dowry (imagine all of the dirtbikes i could have purchased with that sweet, sweet chattel monies!) My opinion: Diamonds are hotpockets: there is a lot of money going into advertising an otherwise unhealthy thing (for you and global society as a whole).
morkalork 3y ago
Getting married in the first place is losing its appeal. Lots of millenials have witnessed boomers getting serially married and divorced in their lives and have interest in that drama.
vsskanth 3y ago
Is this something related to people wearing less jewelry in general or just diamonds ?
neonate 3y ago
https://archive.md/78YL7 https://archive.md/78YL7
bullen 3y ago
Well they burn at 600°C so they really have no value.
- jansan 3y ago
  Aem, I doubt you can judge the value of an object by the temperature it starts burning. By that measure, no book, no human, not oil nor wood has value.
  - bullen 3y ago
    A diamond is forever... poof! The downvotes are telling... Karma is inverted!
    - pixl97 3y ago
      Even the universe isn't forever
stared 3y ago
As a side note, silicon carbide (also known as moissanite, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite) has better optical properties (slightly higher refractive index, twice as high dispersion) while not carrying multiple ethical dilemmas. It has a slightly lower hardness, but it does not matter unless you want it precisely to cut things.
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
  The engagement ring I bought my (now) wife has a main Moissanite stone (clear), a ring of artificial emeralds, and artificial diamond accent stones (clear). The fact that we can artificially produce gemstones is really cool, green is my favorite color, there are no negative ethical implications from mining, and it makes for a very pretty ring. And it cost a lot less than an equivalent-sized diamond, even an artificial one.
- zcdziura 3y ago
  When I proposed to my wife, I proposed with a ring with a single, solitary moissanite gemstone, about 1kt. She loved it (I assume she still loves it, she still wears it and gets complements on it frequently). One of the main complements that she receives is how "shiny" it is, probably due to how refractive moissanite is compared to diamond. That made me feel good hearing how people noticed. It was also SIGNIFICANTLY less money than an equally sized diamond at the time. I understand that you want to demonstrate your love and affection to your significant other, but I can't justify spending nearly $10k on a ring, whose gemstone was probably harvested by someone working in reprehensible conditions (probably slavery).
edgarvaldes 3y ago
HN sees diamonds with a focus in science, economics and ethic. Other demigraphics are not like that, to other people is about status, showing off, tradition, etc. Yes we know that other objects can show more status, but some people really like The Idea about diamonds.
- pixl97 3y ago
  The question is about size of markets... Being in the diamond market from 1900 to 2000 was probably good if you wanted to make money. Being in the diamond market now is going to involve a shrinking market, at least in most western countries. The number of marriages in the US per 1000 per year has halved since 1990. Add in that some growing portion of the population doesn't care about diamonds and then add artificial diamonds then the market looks a lot different. Unless you talk some other large population source into buying expensive diamonds (China? India?) expect the prices to decrease over the years.
photochemsyn 3y ago
Diamonds made from atmospheric CO2 would have a wide marketing appeal, and their provenance would be easy to distinguish (as the synthetic route involves capture of atmospheric CO2, conversion to methane as the synthetic diamond feedstock, so they'd have the same 14C content as atmospheric CO2 does). Eventually I imagine diamonds will go the way of aluminum, which used to be very hard to produce and so was valued similarly to silver and gold, and so was also seen as a material wealth flex (e.g. Napoleon's aluminum dining set etc.). It'll be just another industrial material.
- eropple 3y ago
  > It'll be just another industrial material. It already is, except it has a legacy marketing department attached. The article's point is that they're kinda losing.
Waterluvian 3y ago
I remember visiting my grandparents houses and they had curios everywhere. Just cabinets of dishes and Royal Doultons and silver spoon collections and such. And these were not wealthy people by any means. Growing up, my parents had similar. Copper cookware hanging from the wall that we never used, an entire room with a piano and sofas and more curio cabinets that we went into twice a year: Thanksgiving and Christmas. A big issue is that all that stuff ended up with my parents and their siblings, and now all their stuff is ending up with my siblings and I. And none of us want any of it. I got to thinking: why did they collect all this stuff? And I came up with two guesses: 1) historically it was seen as a good way to "store" your wealth. My grandparents grew up in an environment that deeply appreciated the Great Depression. My parents were raised by parents who experienced it. 2) When you have money and there aren't GTX 3080s or smartphones to buy, you find things to spend it on, even if they're not as practical. I'm not saying this doesn't exist anymore: collectables is a massive thing. But I feel, in general, my siblings and my friends and I all kinda feel the same way: "why would I want an extra room we never use? Why would I want all that stuff I don't use?" I'm wondering if this is purely a generational cultural transition: we are finding less value in expensive do-nothings now that there's a thousand-and-eleventy ways to spend that money in a more usable way?
- solardev 3y ago
  Isn't that the whole quintessentially Millennial "buy experiences, not things" meme? In the old days, a middle class income buys you a good house and some trinkets to fill it with. Nowadays a middle class income buys you nothing except a few fun trips. Might as well make the best of it.
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    Yeah, that concept may be quite related! This also reminds me of when I bought my house, my agent had mentioned how homes with all these superfluous rooms are becoming more difficult to sell because as prices go up, buyers just see useless space that costs money. (And now I'm also reminded about the sickening ostentatiousness of growing up in a home with so many rooms that as a kid I'd sometimes think, "hey I haven't been in this room in six months. Let's go inside just to... be inside for a minute.")
AdmiralAsshat 3y ago
Good. When I told my fiance I was thinking of proposing, I asked if she would like to be involved in picking out the engagement ring, and if she minded whether it was genuine or lab-grown. She did not. We commissioned a nice, lab-grown Alexandrite stone, which she loves, and the several grand in savings allowed me to get her a nicer band to go with it. None of our family/friends that she shows off the ring to care that it's lab-grown. The only people who sneer that it is not a "real" diamond do not belong in our social circle. When the only difference between a lab-grown diamond and a "real" one comes down to "Some children in an African diamond mine had to suffer to bring you the latter," you could very reasonably argue that the cruelty is the point.
- dylan604 3y ago
  >The only people who sneer that it is not a "real" diamond do not belong in our social circle. Clearly, I'm not in that circle either. If someone shows me their ring that they a clearly proud of, just finding the gall to even dare asking "is it real" is so beyond me that I don't really even know where to begin. It's not like it's a knock off hand bag that these same people seem to embrace, so I really am quite content (more than that really) that I'm not in those circles. Congrats on having a good experience with that whole process.
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    I imagine most of those people expect to hear "yes" as the answer, even if it isn't. I don't know exactly why they do that (I suspect it's just childish), but I know a few people that behave like that.
- henry2023 3y ago
  >> The only people who sneer that it is not a "real" diamond No one really cares about "real" diamonds
kasperni 3y ago
If anyone is interested in a good documentary about diamonds and the De Beers cartel I can recommend Nothing Lasts Forever [1][2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHIGGdxZe64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHIGGdxZe64 [2] https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/feb/12/nothing-lasts-forever-review-sparkling-documentary-about-the-diamond-business https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/feb/12/nothing-lasts-f...
ortusdux 3y ago
Nile Red on youtube did a great video where he burns diamonds in a O2 rich atmosphere, collects the resulting CO2, and makes carbonated water. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0wvDwSnzcw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0wvDwSnzcw
pugets 3y ago
I proposed last year with a lab-made diamond. I did almost no research, went to one jeweler and only twice, shelled out less money than I was spending on rent, and I walked away with one of the prettiest rings she has ever seen. Her friends unanimously love it. They can’t believe I picked it out. I don’t know or care about the politics of the diamond trade. All I can confirm on is this: Lab-grown diamonds are the real deal. They will even fool a jeweler’s naked eye.
- henry2023 3y ago
  They don't need to fool anyone. Lab grown diamonds are real diamonds. Only a tiny minority of people vested in the industry care about earth made diamonds.
ridgeguy 3y ago
The prices of synthetic stones have been eroding rapidly [1] as more makers come online. I'm aware of two factories ex-USA, one with ~700 CVD systems, the other with ~900 systems. Each system yields raw material for ~25 1+ct finished gems every two weeks. These two facilities alone can produce about 1.6 million 1ct finished stones/year. In the 1-2ct range, naturals can't compete anymore on price. In the 3+ct range, Asian markets are still very strong for naturals. I think that will persist, as natural diamond reserves are in decline [2] and the cachet of natural vs. synthetic is particularly strong in some cultures. [1] https://fortune.com/2023/09/03/diamond-demand-falling-lab-grown-stones-de-beers-cutting-cutting-prices/# https://fortune.com/2023/09/03/diamond-demand-falling-lab-gr... [2] https://www.fcresearch.org/the-last-diamond-unearthed-the-countdown-is-on/#:~:text=At%20present%2C%2040%20mines%20worldwide,be%20affected%2C%20with%20no%20exceptions https://www.fcresearch.org/the-last-diamond-unearthed-the-co....
mmh0000 3y ago
Well duh, why would I want a shiny rock when I can instead have a $800 apple watch and $1700 cell phone, and a $100K Tesla? It's 2023 not -1000bc, there are better ways to display wealth to the opposite sex than shiny rocks.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
An article in The Economist that doesn't touch on the actual economics of diamonds, not once. And, they talk about gold as if it only does well in economic downturns. Diamonds are worthless rocks.
glouwbug 3y ago
I’d argue so is marrying
jasonm23 3y ago
Diamonds, viewed as a scam, is pretty much the norm no? Resale is a joke, and De Beers have held an effective global monopoly for decades. Given this, how are they "losing their allure...." what allure?
dang 3y ago
Related: Have You Ever Tried to Sell a Diamond? (1982) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37396372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37396372 - Sept 2023 (11 comments) Diamonds Suck (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26698511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26698511 - April 2021 (53 comments) Diamonds aren’t special and neither is love - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25978139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25978139 - Jan 2021 (90 comments) Diamonds Are Bullshit - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25059605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25059605 - Nov 2020 (27 comments) Billions of dollars of unsold diamonds are piling up around the world - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23502201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23502201 - June 2020 (104 comments) Shaking Up the Diamond Industry - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22209364 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22209364 - Feb 2020 (120 comments) Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21522898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21522898 - Nov 2019 (389 comments) Have You Ever Tried to Sell a Diamond? (1982) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20818618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20818618 - Aug 2019 (237 comments) The Elite Club That Rules the Diamond World Is Starting to Crack - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20555503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20555503 - July 2019 (200 comments) Would You Pay $32,709 for a Lab-Grown Diamond? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19287565 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19287565 - March 2019 (34 comments) Diamonds Suck (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17186457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17186457 - May 2018 (215 comments) Diamonds Are Bullshit - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17184539 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17184539 - May 2018 (45 comments) De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17183603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17183603 - May 2018 (439 comments) Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16551147 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16551147 - March 2018 (301 comments) Diamonds Suck (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12944464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12944464 - Nov 2016 (576 comments) A Lab-Grown Diamond Is Forever - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11903409 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11903409 - June 2016 (106 comments) What the diamond industry is really selling - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11099809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11099809 - Feb 2016 (83 comments) Diamonds Suck (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10834567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10834567 - Jan 2016 (2 comments) Diamonds are Bullshit (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9251952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9251952 - March 2015 (75 comments) A Diamond Market No Longer Controlled By De Beers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7793386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7793386 - May 2014 (111 comments) Diamonds Suck - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6868968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6868968 - Dec 2013 (3 comments) Diamonds Are Bullshit - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5403988 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5403988 - March 2013 (734 comments) Have You Ever Tried to Sell a Diamond? (1982) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4535611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4535611 - Sept 2012 (225 comments) Have you ever tried to sell a diamond? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1405698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1405698 - June 2010 (85 comments) Have you ever tried to sell a diamond? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1110283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1110283 - Feb 2010 (76 comments) The Facts About Diamonds (and why I don’t like De Beers) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1109318 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1109318 - Feb 2010 (41 comments) De Beers profits fall 92% - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=722115 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=722115 - July 2009 (25 comments) Diamonds on Demand - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=330749 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=330749 - Oct 2008 (16 comments)

82 points by j-a-a-p 3y ago

Good! They're mostly a marketing ploy by DeBeers and other companies to push overpriced stuff Get a moassanite or a synthetic diamond. Engagement rings with a stone are not even a thing outside of the US it seems

pclmulqdq 3y ago
If you want a rare rock, get a nice colored gemstone. They are much rarer than diamonds and often have a lot more character.
- abirch 3y ago
  You're right about gemstones. I saw the lab grown stuff coming a while ago didn't want to spend money on diamonds: I wanted gemstones and not to throw away money. My now wife wanted a diamond so I caved. I did add emeralds but wish that the ring was mostly gemstones.
- pixl97 3y ago
  This said, if it's going to be worn commonly, check into the hardness/brittleness of the stone you are getting.
g_delgado14 3y ago
As a latino I can confidently say that diamond engagement rings are extremely coveted in latin america
- mysterydip 3y ago
  Can you shed some light on why that is? I'm assuming value/cost to acquire?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- diego_moita 3y ago
  > in latin america Well, define "latin america". This place has huge cultural differences. Culturally and ethnically we're even more diverse than the U.S. In parts and some social circles of Latin America, closer to the U.S. marketing, diamond engagement rings are coveted, indeed. But it is not everywhere.
- silveira 3y ago
  I'm originally from Brazil and the first time I heard about diamond engagement rings where when I moved to the US. It's basically a scam.
secondcoming 3y ago
Stones are still a thing in the UK and Ireland
pers0n 3y ago
Exactly, before like the 1920s people just gave gold rings. It’s all marketing, probably the most successful one ever
- dylan604 3y ago
  It's up there. But does it compete with Christmas?
Tade0 3y ago
My SO got an engagement iPad. The jewelry aspect is in the sapphire glass shielding the camera. It still has better resale value than an engagement ring with the same original price.
- henry2023 3y ago
  I'd rather have an engagement poem than an engagement iPad. I could say the former is priceless.
  - Tade0 3y ago
    True, but the original point of an engagement ring was for it to be a store of value should the fiancee perish unexpectedly, so I was aiming for that.

devnullbrain 3y ago

>American couples date for about three years before getting engaged, and thanks to covid-19 very few people were out and about meeting potential husbands or wives in 2020. An unusually small number of people are probably getting engaged this year. And all the people who would have got married during 2020 but couldn't?

pelagicAustral 3y ago
Well, I'm going to take a leap of faith and guess that a significant portion of those split during/because of the pandemic.

xyzelement 3y ago

Totally cool and not everyone's cup of tea. Wasn't mine when I was growing up. But I married a woman who grew up more in that type of sphere. I ended up having a lot of fun diamond shopping in the upstairs office of a dealer in the diamond district in NYC, learning a lot, connecting to the stone, etc. My wife loved it and I love seeing the ring on her hand. If the market value of it goes to zero and it's just a sentimental thing we share and then give to our daughter, I got my money's worth. Obviously wouldn't have done it if I couldn't afford it etc

willcipriano 3y ago
A bit sexist though isn't it? This is one thing men should no longer feel obligated to do, in the name of equality.
- Ylpertnodi 3y ago
  Not if written by a woman.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    In the same sex weddings I've attended, both parties had the same or similar rings. One party didn't get a ring that was wildly more expensive than the other.
- keenmaster 3y ago
  You’re dunking on a fictional hyper-woke straw man in response to someone sharing a wholesome anecdote about doing something nice for their wife. Lol.
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    Do you have a good argument why this tradition should stand or are you just going to make assumptions about me?
    - 3y ago

arkad 3y ago

Copy of the article without the paywall: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-diamonds-losing-allure-203325549.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-diamonds-losing-allure-20...

cvccvroomvroom 3y ago

Boycott the cartel and their resource curse/slavery/conflict diamonds. There are plenty of other ways besides advertising-manufactured material expressions of commitment. Make your own rings.

rs999gti 3y ago
This doesn't work unless you can get women on board. There is still significant demand from them for engagement rings.

r3trohack3r 3y ago

From what I understand about diamonds they’re completely uninteresting to me. The way you measure how valuable a diamond is? Purity. The way you tell a lab made diamond from a “real” diamond? Purity. If it’s too pure it’s fake. There is this weird market where you want the purist diamond you can find, but not too pure. So you want some imperfections, just the perfect number of imperfections. Too many imperfections and it’s low quality. Too few imperfections and it’s worthless enough to grind to dust and use on consumable parts for power tools. The modern jewelry market is also substantially different than what past generations taught me jewelry was. To them, jewelry was meant to be a value store. You purchase a valuable ring, the stone and metal held their value and you or your heirs could sell it later if times were tough. Now jewelry seems more like buying a new car. It loses half its value when you drive it off the lot.

thaumasiotes 3y ago
> Too few imperfections and it’s worthless enough to grind to dust and use on consumable parts for power tools. Industrial diamonds have been important for much longer than synthetic gem-quality diamonds have. Abrasive tools need diamonds, but they don't need to be attractive, so they aren't.
- XorNot 3y ago
  Cheap industrial diamond tooling is one of my favourite things about living in the future. Just incredibly useful.
BurningFrog 3y ago
At least gold still keeps its value, while looking good/expensive.
pizzaknife 3y ago
I dont have a dog in this fight but hilariously the argument //for imperfection// i see here: People are flawed, damaged and utterly fragile. Is a "pure diamond" the projection of unrealistic expectations? Legal disclosures: - I am married (for much longer than the bell curve would suggest) - I did buy a diamond - I did stress about spending that money - I don't see the diamond as any real asset (financially or otherwise) - I bought said diamond AFTER i asked my SO's patriarch for permission - I DID NOT receive a dowry (imagine all of the dirtbikes i could have purchased with that sweet, sweet chattel monies!) My opinion: Diamonds are hotpockets: there is a lot of money going into advertising an otherwise unhealthy thing (for you and global society as a whole).

morkalork 3y ago

Getting married in the first place is losing its appeal. Lots of millenials have witnessed boomers getting serially married and divorced in their lives and have interest in that drama.

vsskanth 3y ago

Is this something related to people wearing less jewelry in general or just diamonds ?

neonate 3y ago

https://archive.md/78YL7 https://archive.md/78YL7

bullen 3y ago

Well they burn at 600°C so they really have no value.

jansan 3y ago
Aem, I doubt you can judge the value of an object by the temperature it starts burning. By that measure, no book, no human, not oil nor wood has value.
- bullen 3y ago
  A diamond is forever... poof! The downvotes are telling... Karma is inverted!
  - pixl97 3y ago
    Even the universe isn't forever

stared 3y ago

As a side note, silicon carbide (also known as moissanite, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite) has better optical properties (slightly higher refractive index, twice as high dispersion) while not carrying multiple ethical dilemmas. It has a slightly lower hardness, but it does not matter unless you want it precisely to cut things.

SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
The engagement ring I bought my (now) wife has a main Moissanite stone (clear), a ring of artificial emeralds, and artificial diamond accent stones (clear). The fact that we can artificially produce gemstones is really cool, green is my favorite color, there are no negative ethical implications from mining, and it makes for a very pretty ring. And it cost a lot less than an equivalent-sized diamond, even an artificial one.
zcdziura 3y ago
When I proposed to my wife, I proposed with a ring with a single, solitary moissanite gemstone, about 1kt. She loved it (I assume she still loves it, she still wears it and gets complements on it frequently). One of the main complements that she receives is how "shiny" it is, probably due to how refractive moissanite is compared to diamond. That made me feel good hearing how people noticed. It was also SIGNIFICANTLY less money than an equally sized diamond at the time. I understand that you want to demonstrate your love and affection to your significant other, but I can't justify spending nearly $10k on a ring, whose gemstone was probably harvested by someone working in reprehensible conditions (probably slavery).

edgarvaldes 3y ago

HN sees diamonds with a focus in science, economics and ethic. Other demigraphics are not like that, to other people is about status, showing off, tradition, etc. Yes we know that other objects can show more status, but some people really like The Idea about diamonds.

pixl97 3y ago
The question is about size of markets... Being in the diamond market from 1900 to 2000 was probably good if you wanted to make money. Being in the diamond market now is going to involve a shrinking market, at least in most western countries. The number of marriages in the US per 1000 per year has halved since 1990. Add in that some growing portion of the population doesn't care about diamonds and then add artificial diamonds then the market looks a lot different. Unless you talk some other large population source into buying expensive diamonds (China? India?) expect the prices to decrease over the years.

photochemsyn 3y ago

Diamonds made from atmospheric CO2 would have a wide marketing appeal, and their provenance would be easy to distinguish (as the synthetic route involves capture of atmospheric CO2, conversion to methane as the synthetic diamond feedstock, so they'd have the same 14C content as atmospheric CO2 does). Eventually I imagine diamonds will go the way of aluminum, which used to be very hard to produce and so was valued similarly to silver and gold, and so was also seen as a material wealth flex (e.g. Napoleon's aluminum dining set etc.). It'll be just another industrial material.

eropple 3y ago
> It'll be just another industrial material. It already is, except it has a legacy marketing department attached. The article's point is that they're kinda losing.

Waterluvian 3y ago

I remember visiting my grandparents houses and they had curios everywhere. Just cabinets of dishes and Royal Doultons and silver spoon collections and such. And these were not wealthy people by any means. Growing up, my parents had similar. Copper cookware hanging from the wall that we never used, an entire room with a piano and sofas and more curio cabinets that we went into twice a year: Thanksgiving and Christmas. A big issue is that all that stuff ended up with my parents and their siblings, and now all their stuff is ending up with my siblings and I. And none of us want any of it. I got to thinking: why did they collect all this stuff? And I came up with two guesses: 1) historically it was seen as a good way to "store" your wealth. My grandparents grew up in an environment that deeply appreciated the Great Depression. My parents were raised by parents who experienced it. 2) When you have money and there aren't GTX 3080s or smartphones to buy, you find things to spend it on, even if they're not as practical. I'm not saying this doesn't exist anymore: collectables is a massive thing. But I feel, in general, my siblings and my friends and I all kinda feel the same way: "why would I want an extra room we never use? Why would I want all that stuff I don't use?" I'm wondering if this is purely a generational cultural transition: we are finding less value in expensive do-nothings now that there's a thousand-and-eleventy ways to spend that money in a more usable way?

solardev 3y ago
Isn't that the whole quintessentially Millennial "buy experiences, not things" meme? In the old days, a middle class income buys you a good house and some trinkets to fill it with. Nowadays a middle class income buys you nothing except a few fun trips. Might as well make the best of it.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  Yeah, that concept may be quite related! This also reminds me of when I bought my house, my agent had mentioned how homes with all these superfluous rooms are becoming more difficult to sell because as prices go up, buyers just see useless space that costs money. (And now I'm also reminded about the sickening ostentatiousness of growing up in a home with so many rooms that as a kid I'd sometimes think, "hey I haven't been in this room in six months. Let's go inside just to... be inside for a minute.")

AdmiralAsshat 3y ago

Good. When I told my fiance I was thinking of proposing, I asked if she would like to be involved in picking out the engagement ring, and if she minded whether it was genuine or lab-grown. She did not. We commissioned a nice, lab-grown Alexandrite stone, which she loves, and the several grand in savings allowed me to get her a nicer band to go with it. None of our family/friends that she shows off the ring to care that it's lab-grown. The only people who sneer that it is not a "real" diamond do not belong in our social circle. When the only difference between a lab-grown diamond and a "real" one comes down to "Some children in an African diamond mine had to suffer to bring you the latter," you could very reasonably argue that the cruelty is the point.

dylan604 3y ago
>The only people who sneer that it is not a "real" diamond do not belong in our social circle. Clearly, I'm not in that circle either. If someone shows me their ring that they a clearly proud of, just finding the gall to even dare asking "is it real" is so beyond me that I don't really even know where to begin. It's not like it's a knock off hand bag that these same people seem to embrace, so I really am quite content (more than that really) that I'm not in those circles. Congrats on having a good experience with that whole process.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  I imagine most of those people expect to hear "yes" as the answer, even if it isn't. I don't know exactly why they do that (I suspect it's just childish), but I know a few people that behave like that.
henry2023 3y ago
>> The only people who sneer that it is not a "real" diamond No one really cares about "real" diamonds

kasperni 3y ago

If anyone is interested in a good documentary about diamonds and the De Beers cartel I can recommend Nothing Lasts Forever [1][2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHIGGdxZe64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHIGGdxZe64 [2] https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/feb/12/nothing-lasts-forever-review-sparkling-documentary-about-the-diamond-business https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/feb/12/nothing-lasts-f...

ortusdux 3y ago

Nile Red on youtube did a great video where he burns diamonds in a O2 rich atmosphere, collects the resulting CO2, and makes carbonated water. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0wvDwSnzcw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0wvDwSnzcw

pugets 3y ago

I proposed last year with a lab-made diamond. I did almost no research, went to one jeweler and only twice, shelled out less money than I was spending on rent, and I walked away with one of the prettiest rings she has ever seen. Her friends unanimously love it. They can’t believe I picked it out. I don’t know or care about the politics of the diamond trade. All I can confirm on is this: Lab-grown diamonds are the real deal. They will even fool a jeweler’s naked eye.

henry2023 3y ago
They don't need to fool anyone. Lab grown diamonds are real diamonds. Only a tiny minority of people vested in the industry care about earth made diamonds.

ridgeguy 3y ago

The prices of synthetic stones have been eroding rapidly [1] as more makers come online. I'm aware of two factories ex-USA, one with ~700 CVD systems, the other with ~900 systems. Each system yields raw material for ~25 1+ct finished gems every two weeks. These two facilities alone can produce about 1.6 million 1ct finished stones/year. In the 1-2ct range, naturals can't compete anymore on price. In the 3+ct range, Asian markets are still very strong for naturals. I think that will persist, as natural diamond reserves are in decline [2] and the cachet of natural vs. synthetic is particularly strong in some cultures. [1] https://fortune.com/2023/09/03/diamond-demand-falling-lab-grown-stones-de-beers-cutting-cutting-prices/# https://fortune.com/2023/09/03/diamond-demand-falling-lab-gr... [2] https://www.fcresearch.org/the-last-diamond-unearthed-the-countdown-is-on/#:~:text=At%20present%2C%2040%20mines%20worldwide,be%20affected%2C%20with%20no%20exceptions https://www.fcresearch.org/the-last-diamond-unearthed-the-co....

mmh0000 3y ago

Well duh, why would I want a shiny rock when I can instead have a $800 apple watch and $1700 cell phone, and a $100K Tesla? It's 2023 not -1000bc, there are better ways to display wealth to the opposite sex than shiny rocks.

friend_and_foe 3y ago

An article in The Economist that doesn't touch on the actual economics of diamonds, not once. And, they talk about gold as if it only does well in economic downturns. Diamonds are worthless rocks.

glouwbug 3y ago

I’d argue so is marrying

jasonm23 3y ago

Diamonds, viewed as a scam, is pretty much the norm no? Resale is a joke, and De Beers have held an effective global monopoly for decades. Given this, how are they "losing their allure...." what allure?

dang 3y ago

Related: Have You Ever Tried to Sell a Diamond? (1982) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37396372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37396372 - Sept 2023 (11 comments) Diamonds Suck (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26698511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26698511 - April 2021 (53 comments) Diamonds aren’t special and neither is love - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25978139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25978139 - Jan 2021 (90 comments) Diamonds Are Bullshit - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25059605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25059605 - Nov 2020 (27 comments) Billions of dollars of unsold diamonds are piling up around the world - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23502201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23502201 - June 2020 (104 comments) Shaking Up the Diamond Industry - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22209364 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22209364 - Feb 2020 (120 comments) Diamonds Keep Getting Cheaper - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21522898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21522898 - Nov 2019 (389 comments) Have You Ever Tried to Sell a Diamond? (1982) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20818618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20818618 - Aug 2019 (237 comments) The Elite Club That Rules the Diamond World Is Starting to Crack - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20555503 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20555503 - July 2019 (200 comments) Would You Pay $32,709 for a Lab-Grown Diamond? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19287565 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19287565 - March 2019 (34 comments) Diamonds Suck (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17186457 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17186457 - May 2018 (215 comments) Diamonds Are Bullshit - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17184539 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17184539 - May 2018 (45 comments) De Beers admits defeat over man-made diamonds - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17183603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17183603 - May 2018 (439 comments) Lab-grown diamonds threaten viability of the real gems - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16551147 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16551147 - March 2018 (301 comments) Diamonds Suck (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12944464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12944464 - Nov 2016 (576 comments) A Lab-Grown Diamond Is Forever - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11903409 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11903409 - June 2016 (106 comments) What the diamond industry is really selling - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11099809 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11099809 - Feb 2016 (83 comments) Diamonds Suck (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10834567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10834567 - Jan 2016 (2 comments) Diamonds are Bullshit (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9251952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9251952 - March 2015 (75 comments) A Diamond Market No Longer Controlled By De Beers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7793386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7793386 - May 2014 (111 comments) Diamonds Suck - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6868968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6868968 - Dec 2013 (3 comments) Diamonds Are Bullshit - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5403988 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5403988 - March 2013 (734 comments) Have You Ever Tried to Sell a Diamond? (1982) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4535611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4535611 - Sept 2012 (225 comments) Have you ever tried to sell a diamond? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1405698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1405698 - June 2010 (85 comments) Have you ever tried to sell a diamond? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1110283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1110283 - Feb 2010 (76 comments) The Facts About Diamonds (and why I don’t like De Beers) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1109318 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1109318 - Feb 2010 (41 comments) De Beers profits fall 92% - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=722115 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=722115 - July 2009 (25 comments) Diamonds on Demand - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=330749 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=330749 - Oct 2008 (16 comments)