11 ms·

Someone got a nice re-election contribution to exempt "video game consoles" from the bill. No mention of what makes video game consoles so miraculously differe

Someone got a nice re-election contribution to exempt "video game consoles" from the bill. No mention of what makes video game consoles so miraculously different than a video camera, television, etc. It seems like a good step for consumer rights aside from that.

johnday 3y ago
Without trying to defend this particular carve-out, I would suggest that things like computers and video game consoles are improving in capability over a much faster time scale than TVs and video cameras. Hence there is much less of an expectation of longevity / relevance than with other tech goods. That said, the same argument could be made for mobile phones as well, so it's clearly spurious.
- KptMarchewa 3y ago
  That argument made sense 10 years ago, but since then we've seen a lot of slowdown in computers, consoles and mobile phone progress, while TVs have overcome the LCD slump. The value difference between 10 year old console (PS4!) and new one, can be smaller than 10 year old LCD vs new OLED.
  - inetknght 3y ago
    > > Without trying to defend this particular carve-out, I would suggest that things like computers and video game consoles are improving in capability over a much faster time scale than TVs and video cameras. Hence there is much less of an expectation of longevity / relevance than with other tech goods. I disagree with your point, but I'll reply to this one: > That argument made sense 10 years ago, but since then we've seen a lot of slowdown in computers, consoles and mobile phone progress That argument doesn't made even less sense 10 years ago in my opinion. When things are moving fastest (eg, most profitable) is when parts must be made available for consumers to repair themselves. When things are moving slower, then the IP/schematics should absolutely be provided if nobody is willing to make the parts.
    - anonymousab 3y ago
      Video game console gens last longer and have continued software support for longer than Android phones.
      - inetknght 3y ago
        Honestly though: how long something lasts shouldn't matter, companies should still be forced to provide support for things they sell, or else to provide their IP/schematics so that other people can support the trash that was sold.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    This is absolutely true when you look at hardware from today vs 10 years ago, then do the same comparison between the 90s and 80s or even 00s and 90s. People are playing basically the same manner of game now and 10 years ago, but between the 80s and 90s there was radical change in technology in a way that shaped the development of entirely new video game genres. Video game development since about the early to mid 00s has been mostly a matter of refinement, very little has been truly revolutionary.
- InSteady 3y ago
  >Hence there is much less of an expectation of longevity / relevance than with other tech goods. These kinds of arguments are hollow. Especially in gaming, if you make a good console with good games, people will want to hang on to them and play them for literally decades. But even ignoring that specific aspect of gaming culture, it really should not be up to some top-down, self-serving analysis about what most consumers should expect. Otherwise it's just a race to making the least consumer-friendly product so you can make legal/political arguments about consumers obviously want to buy expensive garbage which they expect to break beyond repair in a few years at best.
- Kirby64 3y ago
  It makes less sense. Video game consoles typically run 5-10 year cycles. If anything, supporting repair on them should be easier, because you can play the same games on the console at very first release as you can on the console sold right before they discontinue them. PCs and phones get updates yearly, and a 10 year old PC certainly can't play the same games as a brand new one.
bombcar 3y ago
Speaking of video game consoles I remember finding out that Nintendo would still “repair” a GameCube without composite out into one with it for years and years after the GameCube was not sold new.
- hermannj314 3y ago
  I dont want to start a war with any right-to-repair purists, but I do think in lieu of offering 7 years of parts a company that makes reasonable low-cost (or free) replacement a simple request for 7 years would also be meeting the needs of most consumers. And a lot of video game consoles have very liberal policies already toward this regard. Some products are significantly cheaper to replace than repair, even if they cost more than $99.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    A defined "support period" with relatively bounded costs is all we really need, I agree. Knowing that if I buy a technology product that is more than $100, it will either work for 5 years (or whatever) or be repairable for some fraction of the original cost, would make me satisfied.
  - ncallaway 3y ago
    my only concern with this exception is it creates a monopoly, which then needs to be carefully regulated at multiple levels. Yes, we can regulate the price, but if only the original vendor can perform repairs we might also need to regulate quality and timeliness (similar to how lemon laws for cars often specificy a maximum number of repair attempts, or hours away from the owner for repairs, before the vehicle must be refunded). I think it’s an okay approach, but I also think it requires a heavier hand from the government, and from ongoing oversight, than letting the market figure out reasonable rates for a repair.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      ALL of these various "consumer protection" laws can be gamed by the biggest players, so they have to carefully vetted before they go live. Basing them on the already-existing protections around the auto industry is probably a decent place to start.
matheusmoreira 3y ago
It's weird to me that video game companies apparently have this much lobbying power but all the other consumer electronics corporations don't. Are they really much richer than all the others combined?
- paulmd 3y ago
  the regulation is much more about regulating a governmental solution to the android-iphone wars than regulating consumer freedoms or e-waste etc. those are convenient levers for the powers involved. tim sweeny does not care about unlocking your xbox. at no point was that a possible outcome or a consideration in his thoughts, no matter how much the android guys waved the flags. it's about unreal and unity legislating higher gross margins, and about breaking the apple restrictions on facebook's permission requests, and about safari resistance against google chrome browser monoculture. and y'all lost. is that crass? I guess, but it doesn't matter, because we have to live with the google browser monoculture anyway. I had some people recently tell me "EU will just regulate it if it becomes a problem!". how long did it take to become a problem? didn't google move pretty much right into the enhanced ad profile thing? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36823031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36823031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33821820 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33821820 it is what it is, the laws are passed, but holy shit the arguments have been so transparently bad-faith, or incredibly blind. I’m just so tired of the fanboy wars and the “wow did you actually read someone advocating resale of stolen/mugged parts to bring prices down”. Yes, on HN no less. The android fans are shameless. I’m so tired of the “wow iPhone fans are brainless” (earlier this week). Etc. It’s become so casually normalized for android fanboys to be toxic and gloat about anyone who calls it out. It’s so fucking weird. When did this happen. 2012? 2014? And no, there is no iPhone contingent going around calling android people brainless blue bubble sheeple or saying that their purchase melted their brains etc. it’s crazy. I am so tired of the way the android contingent casually misbehaves, everything is brainless this and brain-rotted that and sheeple this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37491711 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37491711
  - p_j_w 3y ago
    The people you're trying to embarrass by linking here look pretty reasonable. >there is no iPhone contingent going around calling android people brainless blue bubble sheeple On HN? Maybe not. Out in real life? Yes, there absolutely is. I recently got an iPhone, and the number of people who said something along the lines of "OMG you finally got an iPhone, yay!" was fucking obnoxious.
tomhallett 3y ago
I'm wondering if it was a carve out that was easy to give, doesn't water it down too much and is helpful for other politics: * Sony produces semi-conductors and movies (Sony Pictures, Columbia, Tristar) * Microsoft is big in enterprise cloud (ie: government) * the impact of people being forced to upgrade their phone because they can't fix it, is probably larger than people being forced to upgrade their game system because they can't fix it Note: I 100% agree with you. I see video games as the same as all other consumer electronics which were included, but I can see if Sony/Microsoft came complaining, it's a good bargaining chip/favor for other initiatives.
- bluejekyll 3y ago
  I’m actually more surprised that they didn’t cave to Apple. In either direction. Apple should have been kicking and screaming to have no exemptions. Alternatively, the iPhone and AppleTV, and all their computers will now be redefined as gaming consoles (which honestly, what’s the technical difference)
  - xethos 3y ago
    The trillion dollar behemoth famous for having few models can afford to stock parts for seven years. Can Motorola, or the smartphone or laptop arm of Lenovo (industries with famously low margins) justify staying in the space and competing with Apple?
  - joking 3y ago
    Why would Apple complain? You can repair a phone screen as long as you pay 50% off the price of the original phone. As long as they control the supply of components and are able to price them as they wise, it’s a win win for them. The difference between Apple and any other phone, is that Apple has maybe 15 different models to support that each one has been sold by millions of units, meanwhile there are thousands of different android phone models.
  - shaftway 3y ago
    > which honestly, what’s the technical difference According to the Tetris movie, it's that they don't have a keyboard and they are expected to stay in one spot.
BLanen 3y ago
Carving that exemption out afterwards seems easier now too.
alpaca128 3y ago
Can't wait for a smartphone brand to argue their phone is a game console because you can play games on it.
- bathtub365 3y ago
  Apple has been making uncharacteristic strides in this area. At WWDC this year they announced that Death Stranding was coming to Macs, and at the Sept 12 event they had a fairly long piece about how the iPhone 15 Pro is capable of playing AAA games. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was actually a conscious strategy for this angle but that’s speculation.
- hermannj314 3y ago
  The statute's definition of video game console specifically disallows computers, tablets and cell phones from being considered a video game console. Section J9
  - fulafel 3y ago
    Does this apply to general purpouse computers such as the PS3? (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS)
andjd 3y ago
So, there is a defensible reason for this carve-out. For generations now, video game consoles have had very aggressive cryptographic pairing of parts, done in the name of securing the hardware against hacking by the console owner. This is done to prevent mods to enable cheating and piracy. Given that consoles are often sold at a loss with profits recouped on game sales, there's a justification for this. Providing replacement parts for game consoles would also require tools to re-pair the replacement parts. If these tools need to be provided to independent repair shops, there's approximately a 100 % chance of them getting leaked and destroying the security of the console. I'm not going to say that this is a good or a bad thing. I'm just pointing out that there's a real reason for lawmakers to treat game consoles different than phones or computers, and that it isn't necessarily a sign of corruption.
- avar 3y ago
  Even if we accept this argument, the parts you're talking about are a tiny proportion of video game console parts. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to e.g. buy replacement analog stick parts.
- Aerroon 3y ago
  >Given that consoles are often sold at a loss with profits recouped on game sales I've wondered about this before: how is this not anti-conpetitive pricing? Is it okay because Sony/MS don't raise prices?
  - dmoy 3y ago
    US law in that area looks more at consumer harm, not incidental harm to other companies, IIRC. There's a separate way to get in trouble here around predatory pricing, but I think that's more complicated (you have to be doing it specifically to drive people out of business). It depends on what the rest of the market does. See https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/predatory-or-below-cost-pricing https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui... Specifically > Pricing below a competitor's costs occurs in many competitive markets and generally does not violate the antitrust laws. Sometimes the low-pricing firm is simply more efficient. Pricing below your own costs is also not a violation of the law unless it is part of a strategy to eliminate competitors, and when that strategy has a dangerous probability of creating a monopoly for the discounting firm so that it can raise prices far into the future and recoup its losses. So > Is it okay because Sony/MS don't raise prices? Yes exactly this. See also: Printers sold below cost with expensive ink refills. E-readers, often Razors for shaving - the base or chassis or whatever you call it is often sold below cost.
tzs 3y ago
It also looks like it doesn't apply to all-terrain vehicles, or to machinery, equipment, implements, or attachments used for or in connection with: 1. Lawn, garden, golf course, landscaping, or grounds maintenance, 2. Planting, cultivating, irrigating, harvesting, and producing agricultural or forestry products, 3. Raising, feeding, or tending to, or harvesting products from, livestock and any other activity in connection with those activities, 4. Industrial, construction, maintenance, mining, or utility activities or applications, including, but not limited to, material handling equipment, although that exclusion does not apply to "self-propelled vehicles designed primarily for the transportation of persons or property on a street or highway" even if they are used for one of the above things. There is also an exclusion for alarm systems, which are "an assembly of equipment and devices arranged to detect a hazard or signal the presence of an off-normal situation".
- Sindisil 3y ago
  AKA the John Deere exception. FFS, Deere's egregious behavior is a large part of the push for RTR legislation. Disappointing, if not unsurprising.
  - deelowe 3y ago
    And as planned, were sitting here blaming Deere and not the politicians who allow this to happen. Deere is simply looking out for its best interests. The real scum are these so called "representatives" who place corporate interests over small businesses and citizens. Walk through your local Lowe's and home Depot and take a close look at their lawn equipment. It's all junk that will be thrown away in a decade. Plastic bushings, plastic spindles, flimsy exhaust mounts, etc. If you seriously take the time to look closely, you can see where you they are engineered to fail. Even contractor brands like Stihl are starting to do this stuff. Most of their trimmers now do not have a grease fill port on the head. To make matters worse, replacing a head costs almost as much as an entire trimmer...
    - maerF0x0 3y ago
      And every time the citizenry tries to use regulation to reign in a megacorp it ends up creating more burden for that company's competition. megacorps legal team can easily squeeze into the loop holes, but mom and pops (and entrepreneurs) get ground up like cheap meat.
nobodyandproud 3y ago
Not having these carve-outs would force some local manufacturing know-how. And solve some of the major garbage issues of our times. Of course the billwriters couldn’t push for a later timeframe for those “exceptions” rather than an outright pass.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
grecy 3y ago
> got a nice re-election contribution It's bribery. They were paid a Bribe. Use the word.
JohnFen 3y ago
I think it says a lot about the terrible state of things that such mild and inadequate legislation as this can be characterized as "the strongest yet". Don't get me wrong, any progress is good, but this is, at best, a very tiny baby step.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

johnday 3y ago

Without trying to defend this particular carve-out, I would suggest that things like computers and video game consoles are improving in capability over a much faster time scale than TVs and video cameras. Hence there is much less of an expectation of longevity / relevance than with other tech goods. That said, the same argument could be made for mobile phones as well, so it's clearly spurious.

KptMarchewa 3y ago
That argument made sense 10 years ago, but since then we've seen a lot of slowdown in computers, consoles and mobile phone progress, while TVs have overcome the LCD slump. The value difference between 10 year old console (PS4!) and new one, can be smaller than 10 year old LCD vs new OLED.
- inetknght 3y ago
  > > Without trying to defend this particular carve-out, I would suggest that things like computers and video game consoles are improving in capability over a much faster time scale than TVs and video cameras. Hence there is much less of an expectation of longevity / relevance than with other tech goods. I disagree with your point, but I'll reply to this one: > That argument made sense 10 years ago, but since then we've seen a lot of slowdown in computers, consoles and mobile phone progress That argument doesn't made even less sense 10 years ago in my opinion. When things are moving fastest (eg, most profitable) is when parts must be made available for consumers to repair themselves. When things are moving slower, then the IP/schematics should absolutely be provided if nobody is willing to make the parts.
  - anonymousab 3y ago
    Video game console gens last longer and have continued software support for longer than Android phones.
    - inetknght 3y ago
      Honestly though: how long something lasts shouldn't matter, companies should still be forced to provide support for things they sell, or else to provide their IP/schematics so that other people can support the trash that was sold.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  This is absolutely true when you look at hardware from today vs 10 years ago, then do the same comparison between the 90s and 80s or even 00s and 90s. People are playing basically the same manner of game now and 10 years ago, but between the 80s and 90s there was radical change in technology in a way that shaped the development of entirely new video game genres. Video game development since about the early to mid 00s has been mostly a matter of refinement, very little has been truly revolutionary.
InSteady 3y ago
>Hence there is much less of an expectation of longevity / relevance than with other tech goods. These kinds of arguments are hollow. Especially in gaming, if you make a good console with good games, people will want to hang on to them and play them for literally decades. But even ignoring that specific aspect of gaming culture, it really should not be up to some top-down, self-serving analysis about what most consumers should expect. Otherwise it's just a race to making the least consumer-friendly product so you can make legal/political arguments about consumers obviously want to buy expensive garbage which they expect to break beyond repair in a few years at best.
Kirby64 3y ago
It makes less sense. Video game consoles typically run 5-10 year cycles. If anything, supporting repair on them should be easier, because you can play the same games on the console at very first release as you can on the console sold right before they discontinue them. PCs and phones get updates yearly, and a 10 year old PC certainly can't play the same games as a brand new one.

bombcar 3y ago

Speaking of video game consoles I remember finding out that Nintendo would still “repair” a GameCube without composite out into one with it for years and years after the GameCube was not sold new.

hermannj314 3y ago
I dont want to start a war with any right-to-repair purists, but I do think in lieu of offering 7 years of parts a company that makes reasonable low-cost (or free) replacement a simple request for 7 years would also be meeting the needs of most consumers. And a lot of video game consoles have very liberal policies already toward this regard. Some products are significantly cheaper to replace than repair, even if they cost more than $99.
- bombcar 3y ago
  A defined "support period" with relatively bounded costs is all we really need, I agree. Knowing that if I buy a technology product that is more than $100, it will either work for 5 years (or whatever) or be repairable for some fraction of the original cost, would make me satisfied.
- ncallaway 3y ago
  my only concern with this exception is it creates a monopoly, which then needs to be carefully regulated at multiple levels. Yes, we can regulate the price, but if only the original vendor can perform repairs we might also need to regulate quality and timeliness (similar to how lemon laws for cars often specificy a maximum number of repair attempts, or hours away from the owner for repairs, before the vehicle must be refunded). I think it’s an okay approach, but I also think it requires a heavier hand from the government, and from ongoing oversight, than letting the market figure out reasonable rates for a repair.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    ALL of these various "consumer protection" laws can be gamed by the biggest players, so they have to carefully vetted before they go live. Basing them on the already-existing protections around the auto industry is probably a decent place to start.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

It's weird to me that video game companies apparently have this much lobbying power but all the other consumer electronics corporations don't. Are they really much richer than all the others combined?

paulmd 3y ago
the regulation is much more about regulating a governmental solution to the android-iphone wars than regulating consumer freedoms or e-waste etc. those are convenient levers for the powers involved. tim sweeny does not care about unlocking your xbox. at no point was that a possible outcome or a consideration in his thoughts, no matter how much the android guys waved the flags. it's about unreal and unity legislating higher gross margins, and about breaking the apple restrictions on facebook's permission requests, and about safari resistance against google chrome browser monoculture. and y'all lost. is that crass? I guess, but it doesn't matter, because we have to live with the google browser monoculture anyway. I had some people recently tell me "EU will just regulate it if it becomes a problem!". how long did it take to become a problem? didn't google move pretty much right into the enhanced ad profile thing? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36823031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36823031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33821820 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33821820 it is what it is, the laws are passed, but holy shit the arguments have been so transparently bad-faith, or incredibly blind. I’m just so tired of the fanboy wars and the “wow did you actually read someone advocating resale of stolen/mugged parts to bring prices down”. Yes, on HN no less. The android fans are shameless. I’m so tired of the “wow iPhone fans are brainless” (earlier this week). Etc. It’s become so casually normalized for android fanboys to be toxic and gloat about anyone who calls it out. It’s so fucking weird. When did this happen. 2012? 2014? And no, there is no iPhone contingent going around calling android people brainless blue bubble sheeple or saying that their purchase melted their brains etc. it’s crazy. I am so tired of the way the android contingent casually misbehaves, everything is brainless this and brain-rotted that and sheeple this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37491711 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37491711
- p_j_w 3y ago
  The people you're trying to embarrass by linking here look pretty reasonable. >there is no iPhone contingent going around calling android people brainless blue bubble sheeple On HN? Maybe not. Out in real life? Yes, there absolutely is. I recently got an iPhone, and the number of people who said something along the lines of "OMG you finally got an iPhone, yay!" was fucking obnoxious.

tomhallett 3y ago

I'm wondering if it was a carve out that was easy to give, doesn't water it down too much and is helpful for other politics: * Sony produces semi-conductors and movies (Sony Pictures, Columbia, Tristar) * Microsoft is big in enterprise cloud (ie: government) * the impact of people being forced to upgrade their phone because they can't fix it, is probably larger than people being forced to upgrade their game system because they can't fix it Note: I 100% agree with you. I see video games as the same as all other consumer electronics which were included, but I can see if Sony/Microsoft came complaining, it's a good bargaining chip/favor for other initiatives.

bluejekyll 3y ago
I’m actually more surprised that they didn’t cave to Apple. In either direction. Apple should have been kicking and screaming to have no exemptions. Alternatively, the iPhone and AppleTV, and all their computers will now be redefined as gaming consoles (which honestly, what’s the technical difference)
- xethos 3y ago
  The trillion dollar behemoth famous for having few models can afford to stock parts for seven years. Can Motorola, or the smartphone or laptop arm of Lenovo (industries with famously low margins) justify staying in the space and competing with Apple?
- joking 3y ago
  Why would Apple complain? You can repair a phone screen as long as you pay 50% off the price of the original phone. As long as they control the supply of components and are able to price them as they wise, it’s a win win for them. The difference between Apple and any other phone, is that Apple has maybe 15 different models to support that each one has been sold by millions of units, meanwhile there are thousands of different android phone models.
- shaftway 3y ago
  > which honestly, what’s the technical difference According to the Tetris movie, it's that they don't have a keyboard and they are expected to stay in one spot.

BLanen 3y ago

Carving that exemption out afterwards seems easier now too.

alpaca128 3y ago

Can't wait for a smartphone brand to argue their phone is a game console because you can play games on it.

bathtub365 3y ago
Apple has been making uncharacteristic strides in this area. At WWDC this year they announced that Death Stranding was coming to Macs, and at the Sept 12 event they had a fairly long piece about how the iPhone 15 Pro is capable of playing AAA games. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was actually a conscious strategy for this angle but that’s speculation.
hermannj314 3y ago
The statute's definition of video game console specifically disallows computers, tablets and cell phones from being considered a video game console. Section J9
- fulafel 3y ago
  Does this apply to general purpouse computers such as the PS3? (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS)

andjd 3y ago

So, there is a defensible reason for this carve-out. For generations now, video game consoles have had very aggressive cryptographic pairing of parts, done in the name of securing the hardware against hacking by the console owner. This is done to prevent mods to enable cheating and piracy. Given that consoles are often sold at a loss with profits recouped on game sales, there's a justification for this. Providing replacement parts for game consoles would also require tools to re-pair the replacement parts. If these tools need to be provided to independent repair shops, there's approximately a 100 % chance of them getting leaked and destroying the security of the console. I'm not going to say that this is a good or a bad thing. I'm just pointing out that there's a real reason for lawmakers to treat game consoles different than phones or computers, and that it isn't necessarily a sign of corruption.

avar 3y ago
Even if we accept this argument, the parts you're talking about are a tiny proportion of video game console parts. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to e.g. buy replacement analog stick parts.
Aerroon 3y ago
>Given that consoles are often sold at a loss with profits recouped on game sales I've wondered about this before: how is this not anti-conpetitive pricing? Is it okay because Sony/MS don't raise prices?
- dmoy 3y ago
  US law in that area looks more at consumer harm, not incidental harm to other companies, IIRC. There's a separate way to get in trouble here around predatory pricing, but I think that's more complicated (you have to be doing it specifically to drive people out of business). It depends on what the rest of the market does. See https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/predatory-or-below-cost-pricing https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui... Specifically > Pricing below a competitor's costs occurs in many competitive markets and generally does not violate the antitrust laws. Sometimes the low-pricing firm is simply more efficient. Pricing below your own costs is also not a violation of the law unless it is part of a strategy to eliminate competitors, and when that strategy has a dangerous probability of creating a monopoly for the discounting firm so that it can raise prices far into the future and recoup its losses. So > Is it okay because Sony/MS don't raise prices? Yes exactly this. See also: Printers sold below cost with expensive ink refills. E-readers, often Razors for shaving - the base or chassis or whatever you call it is often sold below cost.

tzs 3y ago

It also looks like it doesn't apply to all-terrain vehicles, or to machinery, equipment, implements, or attachments used for or in connection with: 1. Lawn, garden, golf course, landscaping, or grounds maintenance, 2. Planting, cultivating, irrigating, harvesting, and producing agricultural or forestry products, 3. Raising, feeding, or tending to, or harvesting products from, livestock and any other activity in connection with those activities, 4. Industrial, construction, maintenance, mining, or utility activities or applications, including, but not limited to, material handling equipment, although that exclusion does not apply to "self-propelled vehicles designed primarily for the transportation of persons or property on a street or highway" even if they are used for one of the above things. There is also an exclusion for alarm systems, which are "an assembly of equipment and devices arranged to detect a hazard or signal the presence of an off-normal situation".

Sindisil 3y ago
AKA the John Deere exception. FFS, Deere's egregious behavior is a large part of the push for RTR legislation. Disappointing, if not unsurprising.
- deelowe 3y ago
  And as planned, were sitting here blaming Deere and not the politicians who allow this to happen. Deere is simply looking out for its best interests. The real scum are these so called "representatives" who place corporate interests over small businesses and citizens. Walk through your local Lowe's and home Depot and take a close look at their lawn equipment. It's all junk that will be thrown away in a decade. Plastic bushings, plastic spindles, flimsy exhaust mounts, etc. If you seriously take the time to look closely, you can see where you they are engineered to fail. Even contractor brands like Stihl are starting to do this stuff. Most of their trimmers now do not have a grease fill port on the head. To make matters worse, replacing a head costs almost as much as an entire trimmer...
  - maerF0x0 3y ago
    And every time the citizenry tries to use regulation to reign in a megacorp it ends up creating more burden for that company's competition. megacorps legal team can easily squeeze into the loop holes, but mom and pops (and entrepreneurs) get ground up like cheap meat.

nobodyandproud 3y ago

Not having these carve-outs would force some local manufacturing know-how. And solve some of the major garbage issues of our times. Of course the billwriters couldn’t push for a later timeframe for those “exceptions” rather than an outright pass.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

grecy 3y ago

> got a nice re-election contribution It's bribery. They were paid a Bribe. Use the word.

JohnFen 3y ago

I think it says a lot about the terrible state of things that such mild and inadequate legislation as this can be characterized as "the strongest yet". Don't get me wrong, any progress is good, but this is, at best, a very tiny baby step.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]