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To each their own, but I find funny that people shell out an absurd amount of money for games they will play exactly once but feel robbed when paying for softwa

To each their own, but I find funny that people shell out an absurd amount of money for games they will play exactly once but feel robbed when paying for software that they use every single day. The licensing from sublime is very amenable, I believe, far from what companies like Adobe force on their end users, IMO.

Justsignedup 3y ago
I pay for jet brains platform yearly and it is worth every single penny many times over. The eye rolls I get. Bro. You're literally getting paid 150k at a minimum, you can she'll out 100 dollars a year.
- wernercd 3y ago
  "150k at a minimum" not to say you shouldn't support great companies but the average programmer salary isn't 150k. it's probably not even half that. https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/computer-programmer/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/computer-programm...
  - kqr 3y ago
    Especially not outside of the US and/or FAANG. I know of only one programmer making even close to 150k in Europe unless counting Google.
    - wernercd 3y ago
      As a programmer for a bank, I'm in the ballpark after benefits/yearly bonus (humble brag) but having been on the lookout for remote work in my line of specialty, for me to get a good remote position I will probably have to take a pay/benefits cut. (Long commute before covid. remote during. "hybrid" after. Looking to get back to no commute with rising prices of everything) Programmers with experience do make a good living but FAANG style jobs vastly skew what people think the average programmer makes. Just like unicorn companies make people forget that the vast majority of companies fail.
- Toutouxc 3y ago
  European Rails dev here, working for a startup with a cozy atmosphere, friendly team, not job hopping or playing the Leetcode and 100+ interviews game, I’m looking at something like $50k, which is very nice in my country, but sometimes the numbers getting thrown around here make me feel kind of uncomfortable.
  - tetris11 3y ago
    Take a US salary and halve it to compare it to an EU one https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/538/how-to-match-eu-income-to-us-salary https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/538/how-to-m...
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      EU is a collection of countries / regions with higher / lower pay. 50K US can go far in eastern europe but dry up quickly in Paris, France.
      - tetris11 3y ago
        Same with US being a collection of states with vastly varying tech salaries.
      - mathverse 3y ago
        50k does not go far in EE unless you mean bumfuck nowhere.
        globular-toast 3y ago
        Depends what you mean by "far". For me, someone who grew up in a large family with a single income much smaller than that, yes it does.
        Toutouxc 3y ago
        The average (take-home) pay in the Czech Republic is a little over $18k. A little more in Prague, but $50k still puts you firmly above most of your friends and family.
- solardev 3y ago
  Get me a job that pays 150k and I'll pay for your Jetbrains
- happymellon 3y ago
  It really depends on the app, I'm in Jet Brains apps a lot so it makes sense. I would like a nice Git GUI, but GitKraken pricing is nonsense. I've settled with Fork, but I would prefer it if there was a native Linux version.
- packetlost 3y ago
  > You're literally getting paid 150k at a minimum There's more of the world than SV. Most people outside of those areas do not make that much or even close to it.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- sam_goody 3y ago
  I sometimes forgot that there even are programmers anywhere in the world that are making 150k; maybe one day I will fly to the States just to meet you guys. Some of the comments on HN have a vibe of "Let them eat cake" - they are out of touch with how most of us plebs in the rest of the world are living. And then I realize that the rich influence all the decision making that affects the poor - and it scares me. (BTW: I assume this number is yearly; $12.5K/mo. Which is multiple times the average dev pay out where I live. Even in the States, I assume no one pulls $150K/monthly, amiright?)
  - Justsignedup 3y ago
    In new york with even a remotely small amount of looking for seed startups, an engineer with 1 year of experience can easily get 120k. 150k would be maybe 4 years of experience. As a senior engineer you can get 170-220k easily at a series A startup. This number is doubled or trippled for one of the big boys because of directly tradable equity.
- P_I_Staker 3y ago
  > You're literally getting paid 150k at a minimum Where? This website can be so frustrating with all the silicon valley privileged richy riches. You understand that 150k is a massive salary?
paxys 3y ago
It's not about the dollar amount. $2000 can be a justified payment for a text editor and $1 can be too much. It all depends on how much value you get out of it. Sublime is personally worth $0 to me because I wouldn't use it at all regardless of what I paid for it. And I say that as someone who bought every new version starting from the first one up until ~2018. VS Code is just that much better.
- metaphor 3y ago
  > VS Code is just that much better. The trouble here is that "better" comes at a cost that the community has yet to truly realize, and Microsoft is very good at playing the long, slow bleed game; if strategic fractures[1] come to fruition, that debt will be repaid and it's going to be very expensive. [1] https://ghuntley.com/fracture/ https://ghuntley.com/fracture/
  - politelemon 3y ago
    The reasoning put forward in that link are weak. A large part of it hinges on forks of vscode being unable to use the marketplace, and assuming worst intent in all other areas, and not balancing any other movements with the good that has been done over the past few years. While reading this I realized I could easily say that cncf/k8s has fractured the container community.
  - rewmie 3y ago
    > The trouble here is that "better" comes at a cost that the community has yet to truly realize, Is there actually a cost, though? I mean, I understand the argument over the strategic aspect of adopting a tool that may or may not continue with acceptable terms, but is that risk really significant? By now vscode is already 8 years old and there is no concrete hint that licensing will change. Even so it's hardly irreplaceable. Isn't this one of those problems where it only makes sense to worry about them if they really happen?
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      If VSCode drives all competitors out of business then we're all poorer because we'll have fewer options
tiffanyh 3y ago
> ”I find it funny people shell out an absurd amount of money for games” People are always more willing to spend on entertainment where they get personal joy … than on tools.
- eindiran 3y ago
  In professions where tooling is very important, this is somewhat unique to tech; carpenters, machinists, plumbers, etc are definitely spending a lot of money on their tools.
  - tiffanyh 3y ago
    You also named professions where you’re typically an independent contractor. So you have no choice than to buy your own tools & it directly affects your ability to earn. In tech, that’s not typically the case.
    - pjmlp 3y ago
      It actually is, very few people do product development.
jbverschoor 3y ago
Yet they complain about their TC
Barrin92 3y ago
People don't pay for software because of some sort of editor version of the labor theory of value, they pay for software if its a differentiated product they can't find a cheaper alternative for. This is true for most games. There's no GNU Elden Ring yet. When it comes to Sublime these days it's hard to see why I'd pay for proprietary software, likely more than once when there's everything from Vim to Emacs, to VsCode and a dozen others.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Maybe they would think otherwise if those paying them take the same approach.
wink 3y ago
I agree with your point here, but I think the discussion is usually more nuanced. The things you use every day for quite a bit plus one time purchase - sure. But let's take some hypothetical note-taking tool I access 2 times per day for one minute. Am I willing to pay a subscription for 60 minutes of use per month? nope. And the same is true for development tools I purely use for my fun projects. I kinda like IDEA but 170€ per year? No way, I regularly don't need an IDE for months at a time. Their one-time purchase (was it like 300?) wasn't much better. I don't personally like Sublime, but if I did, 99€ one time sounds absolutely fair. The problem arises when there are a dozen tools. So yeah, my main gripe is with subscriptions, but no, I can't simply justify those purchases to feel more productive in my spare time. I don't really care if I theoretically would need twice as much time to code a feature for a few hours a week. Games are fun, and sometimes art - I enjoy them and so I am willing to pay. In work settings I'm mostly a tool developer myself, so it might sound weird, but I wouldn't want to work for a company that sells a product to end users that does something I can get done 90% with FLOSS tools and fix the bugs I encounter.
- amne 3y ago
  To be fair JetBrains offers fallback licensing. It's 170e/year if you keep paying for it. You can stop and get to keep the latest version you payed. Example: IDEA 1.0 is out now and you pay 170e. 12 months later IDEA 1.9 is out .. if you pay another 170e you get to use 1.9+ If you don't pay you stay on IDEA 1.0. If you cancel earlier than 12 months you don't get to keep anything.

Justsignedup 3y ago

I pay for jet brains platform yearly and it is worth every single penny many times over. The eye rolls I get. Bro. You're literally getting paid 150k at a minimum, you can she'll out 100 dollars a year.

wernercd 3y ago
"150k at a minimum" not to say you shouldn't support great companies but the average programmer salary isn't 150k. it's probably not even half that. https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/computer-programmer/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/computer-programm...
- kqr 3y ago
  Especially not outside of the US and/or FAANG. I know of only one programmer making even close to 150k in Europe unless counting Google.
  - wernercd 3y ago
    As a programmer for a bank, I'm in the ballpark after benefits/yearly bonus (humble brag) but having been on the lookout for remote work in my line of specialty, for me to get a good remote position I will probably have to take a pay/benefits cut. (Long commute before covid. remote during. "hybrid" after. Looking to get back to no commute with rising prices of everything) Programmers with experience do make a good living but FAANG style jobs vastly skew what people think the average programmer makes. Just like unicorn companies make people forget that the vast majority of companies fail.
Toutouxc 3y ago
European Rails dev here, working for a startup with a cozy atmosphere, friendly team, not job hopping or playing the Leetcode and 100+ interviews game, I’m looking at something like $50k, which is very nice in my country, but sometimes the numbers getting thrown around here make me feel kind of uncomfortable.
- tetris11 3y ago
  Take a US salary and halve it to compare it to an EU one https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/538/how-to-match-eu-income-to-us-salary https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/538/how-to-m...
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    EU is a collection of countries / regions with higher / lower pay. 50K US can go far in eastern europe but dry up quickly in Paris, France.
    - tetris11 3y ago
      Same with US being a collection of states with vastly varying tech salaries.
    - mathverse 3y ago
      50k does not go far in EE unless you mean bumfuck nowhere.
      - globular-toast 3y ago
        Depends what you mean by "far". For me, someone who grew up in a large family with a single income much smaller than that, yes it does.
      - Toutouxc 3y ago
        The average (take-home) pay in the Czech Republic is a little over $18k. A little more in Prague, but $50k still puts you firmly above most of your friends and family.
solardev 3y ago
Get me a job that pays 150k and I'll pay for your Jetbrains
happymellon 3y ago
It really depends on the app, I'm in Jet Brains apps a lot so it makes sense. I would like a nice Git GUI, but GitKraken pricing is nonsense. I've settled with Fork, but I would prefer it if there was a native Linux version.
packetlost 3y ago
> You're literally getting paid 150k at a minimum There's more of the world than SV. Most people outside of those areas do not make that much or even close to it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
sam_goody 3y ago
I sometimes forgot that there even are programmers anywhere in the world that are making 150k; maybe one day I will fly to the States just to meet you guys. Some of the comments on HN have a vibe of "Let them eat cake" - they are out of touch with how most of us plebs in the rest of the world are living. And then I realize that the rich influence all the decision making that affects the poor - and it scares me. (BTW: I assume this number is yearly; $12.5K/mo. Which is multiple times the average dev pay out where I live. Even in the States, I assume no one pulls $150K/monthly, amiright?)
- Justsignedup 3y ago
  In new york with even a remotely small amount of looking for seed startups, an engineer with 1 year of experience can easily get 120k. 150k would be maybe 4 years of experience. As a senior engineer you can get 170-220k easily at a series A startup. This number is doubled or trippled for one of the big boys because of directly tradable equity.
P_I_Staker 3y ago
> You're literally getting paid 150k at a minimum Where? This website can be so frustrating with all the silicon valley privileged richy riches. You understand that 150k is a massive salary?

paxys 3y ago

It's not about the dollar amount. $2000 can be a justified payment for a text editor and $1 can be too much. It all depends on how much value you get out of it. Sublime is personally worth $0 to me because I wouldn't use it at all regardless of what I paid for it. And I say that as someone who bought every new version starting from the first one up until ~2018. VS Code is just that much better.

metaphor 3y ago
> VS Code is just that much better. The trouble here is that "better" comes at a cost that the community has yet to truly realize, and Microsoft is very good at playing the long, slow bleed game; if strategic fractures[1] come to fruition, that debt will be repaid and it's going to be very expensive. [1] https://ghuntley.com/fracture/ https://ghuntley.com/fracture/
- politelemon 3y ago
  The reasoning put forward in that link are weak. A large part of it hinges on forks of vscode being unable to use the marketplace, and assuming worst intent in all other areas, and not balancing any other movements with the good that has been done over the past few years. While reading this I realized I could easily say that cncf/k8s has fractured the container community.
- rewmie 3y ago
  > The trouble here is that "better" comes at a cost that the community has yet to truly realize, Is there actually a cost, though? I mean, I understand the argument over the strategic aspect of adopting a tool that may or may not continue with acceptable terms, but is that risk really significant? By now vscode is already 8 years old and there is no concrete hint that licensing will change. Even so it's hardly irreplaceable. Isn't this one of those problems where it only makes sense to worry about them if they really happen?
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    If VSCode drives all competitors out of business then we're all poorer because we'll have fewer options

tiffanyh 3y ago

> ”I find it funny people shell out an absurd amount of money for games” People are always more willing to spend on entertainment where they get personal joy … than on tools.

eindiran 3y ago
In professions where tooling is very important, this is somewhat unique to tech; carpenters, machinists, plumbers, etc are definitely spending a lot of money on their tools.
- tiffanyh 3y ago
  You also named professions where you’re typically an independent contractor. So you have no choice than to buy your own tools & it directly affects your ability to earn. In tech, that’s not typically the case.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    It actually is, very few people do product development.

jbverschoor 3y ago

Yet they complain about their TC

Barrin92 3y ago

People don't pay for software because of some sort of editor version of the labor theory of value, they pay for software if its a differentiated product they can't find a cheaper alternative for. This is true for most games. There's no GNU Elden Ring yet. When it comes to Sublime these days it's hard to see why I'd pay for proprietary software, likely more than once when there's everything from Vim to Emacs, to VsCode and a dozen others.

pjmlp 3y ago
Maybe they would think otherwise if those paying them take the same approach.

wink 3y ago

I agree with your point here, but I think the discussion is usually more nuanced. The things you use every day for quite a bit plus one time purchase - sure. But let's take some hypothetical note-taking tool I access 2 times per day for one minute. Am I willing to pay a subscription for 60 minutes of use per month? nope. And the same is true for development tools I purely use for my fun projects. I kinda like IDEA but 170€ per year? No way, I regularly don't need an IDE for months at a time. Their one-time purchase (was it like 300?) wasn't much better. I don't personally like Sublime, but if I did, 99€ one time sounds absolutely fair. The problem arises when there are a dozen tools. So yeah, my main gripe is with subscriptions, but no, I can't simply justify those purchases to feel more productive in my spare time. I don't really care if I theoretically would need twice as much time to code a feature for a few hours a week. Games are fun, and sometimes art - I enjoy them and so I am willing to pay. In work settings I'm mostly a tool developer myself, so it might sound weird, but I wouldn't want to work for a company that sells a product to end users that does something I can get done 90% with FLOSS tools and fix the bugs I encounter.

amne 3y ago
To be fair JetBrains offers fallback licensing. It's 170e/year if you keep paying for it. You can stop and get to keep the latest version you payed. Example: IDEA 1.0 is out now and you pay 170e. 12 months later IDEA 1.9 is out .. if you pay another 170e you get to use 1.9+ If you don't pay you stay on IDEA 1.0. If you cancel earlier than 12 months you don't get to keep anything.