4 ms·

This is great, I've suffered as a result of how this was previously. I built a garage and had it inspected. I failed an electrical inspection and was given a re

by dwater 3y ago

This is great, I've suffered as a result of how this was previously. I built a garage and had it inspected. I failed an electrical inspection and was given a reference in the National Electrical Code. When I went to look it up to figure out how to remediate, most of the links were trying to sell a copy. NEC wants $145 or a $11.99 monthly subscription. I had to find an illicit copy in order to comply with my local regulations.

tzs 3y ago
I don't know how long it has been this way, but for at least the last few years you can read it online for free [1] if you create an account at the publisher's site, nfpa.org. Here's a list of the codes NFPA publishes [2]. The NEC is NFPA 70. Checking a few random ones, the ones that were not obsolete or withdrawn are available for online free reading. That includes several past editions. E.g., for the NEC the free online access includes editions going back to 1968. (Old editions are sometimes relevant because local codes often lag in adopting the latest version). [1] https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/All-Codes-and-Standards/Free-access https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/All-Codes-and-Stand... [2] https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/All-Codes-and-Standards/Codes-and-Standards https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/All-Codes-and-Stand...
- nico 3y ago
  Not op. Thank you for the resources > if you create an account at the publisher's site, nfpa.org If you need to create an account, that’s only free as in beer, but not free as in libre, which in my opinion every law/code should be
f1shy 3y ago
In Germany as far as I know (please somebody correct if knows better!) there is an association called "VDE" which is private. They make norms, which you must comply with. You have to pay for them, are are relatively expensive (much more than the cost of the editing and the paper in any case). I find it incredible, because the law you are subject to, is not public. But even much worst: basically the state has delegated writing laws to a private company. Please note! VDE is an association of many private companies, they could basically make a new norm, that some kind of cable, devices or such is now required, and you have to comply! That is the wolf taking care of the herd. There was already a case, where they tried to make obligatory a kind of better RCD with microprocessor, but if backfired spectacularly... but it could happen any time again.
- helmchenlord 3y ago
  The government (not the state) has not just "basically" delegated writing laws to private institutions (DIN and VDE are Vereine, not companies). The government actually has a contract with DIN (first signed in 1975, last updated in 2020): https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/804880/5d66359e36df845439b8b91000fca2dd/WD-5-106-20-pdf-data.pdf https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/804880/5d66359e36df84... With the stated purpose of "freeing the government from having to make up its own standards". So Germany has basically avoided the need to pay for a National Instition for Standards, by offloading that cost to everybody who actually wants to read the standard. > VDE is an association of many private companies, they could basically make a new norm, that some kind of cable, devices or such is now required, and you have to comply! This is not correct, though. The norm would still have to be directly mentioned in any kind of legal document, or at least in any requirements by a third party (e.g. a bank that won't give you credit for a house if you don't promise to follow given building standards) to have any binding effect on you. The government also has people sitting on these standardization gremiums. The main issue is that our German government sees value in overboarding standardisation and all those fees because they create revenue and jobs and make life harder for small companies. They want as many strong, big players backed by as many "reputable" standardisation agents (aka "consulting agencies") possible to influence the rest of the world. DIN and VDE are not just nuisances. They're powerhouses of German know-how transfer and influence in the world. Lots of DIN norms even have to be automatically taken over by most other European countries through CEN.
Supply5411 3y ago
I would say it's Kafkaesque, but charging money for access to the legal text seems to take it a step further.

by dwater 3y ago

tzs 3y ago

I don't know how long it has been this way, but for at least the last few years you can read it online for free [1] if you create an account at the publisher's site, nfpa.org. Here's a list of the codes NFPA publishes [2]. The NEC is NFPA 70. Checking a few random ones, the ones that were not obsolete or withdrawn are available for online free reading. That includes several past editions. E.g., for the NEC the free online access includes editions going back to 1968. (Old editions are sometimes relevant because local codes often lag in adopting the latest version). [1] https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/All-Codes-and-Standards/Free-access https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/All-Codes-and-Stand... [2] https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/All-Codes-and-Standards/Codes-and-Standards https://www.nfpa.org/Codes-and-Standards/All-Codes-and-Stand...

nico 3y ago
Not op. Thank you for the resources > if you create an account at the publisher's site, nfpa.org If you need to create an account, that’s only free as in beer, but not free as in libre, which in my opinion every law/code should be

f1shy 3y ago

In Germany as far as I know (please somebody correct if knows better!) there is an association called "VDE" which is private. They make norms, which you must comply with. You have to pay for them, are are relatively expensive (much more than the cost of the editing and the paper in any case). I find it incredible, because the law you are subject to, is not public. But even much worst: basically the state has delegated writing laws to a private company. Please note! VDE is an association of many private companies, they could basically make a new norm, that some kind of cable, devices or such is now required, and you have to comply! That is the wolf taking care of the herd. There was already a case, where they tried to make obligatory a kind of better RCD with microprocessor, but if backfired spectacularly... but it could happen any time again.

helmchenlord 3y ago
The government (not the state) has not just "basically" delegated writing laws to private institutions (DIN and VDE are Vereine, not companies). The government actually has a contract with DIN (first signed in 1975, last updated in 2020): https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/804880/5d66359e36df845439b8b91000fca2dd/WD-5-106-20-pdf-data.pdf https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/804880/5d66359e36df84... With the stated purpose of "freeing the government from having to make up its own standards". So Germany has basically avoided the need to pay for a National Instition for Standards, by offloading that cost to everybody who actually wants to read the standard. > VDE is an association of many private companies, they could basically make a new norm, that some kind of cable, devices or such is now required, and you have to comply! This is not correct, though. The norm would still have to be directly mentioned in any kind of legal document, or at least in any requirements by a third party (e.g. a bank that won't give you credit for a house if you don't promise to follow given building standards) to have any binding effect on you. The government also has people sitting on these standardization gremiums. The main issue is that our German government sees value in overboarding standardisation and all those fees because they create revenue and jobs and make life harder for small companies. They want as many strong, big players backed by as many "reputable" standardisation agents (aka "consulting agencies") possible to influence the rest of the world. DIN and VDE are not just nuisances. They're powerhouses of German know-how transfer and influence in the world. Lots of DIN norms even have to be automatically taken over by most other European countries through CEN.

Supply5411 3y ago

I would say it's Kafkaesque, but charging money for access to the legal text seems to take it a step further.