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There is zero chance that I, a US resident, will ever use debit cards for anything. The reason is that in the event of a fraudulent charge (which still happens

There is zero chance that I, a US resident, will ever use debit cards for anything. The reason is that in the event of a fraudulent charge (which still happens surprisingly often, given that chips were supposed to put an end to that): - With a debit card, I am out $X of my own money, until the bank can be bothered to agree that the charge is fraudulent and refund my money, which can take weeks or months, if at all. Good luck paying rent or buying food or whatnot in the meantime if you don't have a nice savings cushion. - With a credit card, I am out $0 of my own money, and now the bank is potentially out $X of THEIR own money, making them significantly more motivated to investigate promptly and agree that the charge is fraudulent. For however long this takes, I still have my own money to pay rent and buy food, and I'm not on the hook for paying the fraudulent charge. The fact that credit cards tend to have "rewards" in the form of cash back or airline miles or whatever is secondary to me, personally, although I do take advantage of this as much as possible.

wpietri 3y ago
Yeah, I don't use rewards or loyalty programs at all; I don't like giving over the headspace to corporate manipulators. But I still use debit cards very carefully because of the better protections from fraud for credit transactions. The rise of the chip card may have fixed that; it's been a long time since I've had a problem. But I'm reluctant to find out.
- beaviskhan 3y ago
  I will say, it seems better than it used to be in the pre-chip days, but I've had to replace my primary CC once already this year due to an obviously fraudulent charge. To the credit of my bank, it was virtually painless - I had a new card in under 24 hours, and I didn't have to think about the $2000+ charge at all until they confirmed (two months later!) that it was in fact fraud.
- ATMLOTTOBEER 3y ago
  Agreed. Using flat 1.5% cashback cards with autopay + setting the cashback balance to auto apply to each statement is the convenience compromise I have found
pc86 3y ago
Same. I have a debit card that I literally only ever use to take money out of a secure bank ATM (the ones attached to actual branches), or ID myself at the bank teller. Every single thing I'm actually paying for goes on one a handful of cards.
Aardwolf 3y ago
> The reason is that in the event of a fraudulent charge Not sure if a fraudulent charge of a debit card is a thing I ever heard of in Europe. These cards have also been using chips for over 20 years. Maybe they work differently here. To me credit cards sound less secure than debit cards: debit cards have chips and pin codes. With credit cards, knowing the number is in theory enough (they have digital verification now too though). Also, with debit cards, you put it in the payment terminal yourself. With credit cards, in the US I've had the waiters in restaurants taking your credit card from your table, walking to somewhere else with it, and giving it back to you later. I had never seen that before (In Europe, they carry a portable payment thingie in which you can put/tap credit or debit cards to the table). How is that more secure? They could easily copy the number there.
- ezfe 3y ago
  That credit cards don't have PIN codes has nothing to do with them being credit cards vs debit cards, it's just a choice by the industry to not institute them.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ianburrell 3y ago
    It is less that cards don't have PINs for the chip, but that they still have magnetic stripes. It is still possible to skim the card info. I assume that there is mandate to update equipment but I still see registers with swipe. Issuers can distribute cards without magstripe in 2027. But they keep pushing the date out.
    - efreak 3y ago
      IIRC with most credit card purchases in the US, if the retailer only takes magnetic strips, they're liable themselves; if the issuing bank doesn't offer EMV cards, then they're liable; after that is the credit card company I believe, who has an option to put up to $50 liability on the owner (though they rarely do).
dfxm12 3y ago
There is zero chance that I, a US resident, will ever use debit cards for anything. Does being a US resident have any meaning here? I mean, does the rest of the world not secure credit card payments, or does the rest of the world secure debit card payments like the US secures credit card payment?
- beaviskhan 3y ago
  I assume the rest of the world is less stupid/greedy than the US here, but honestly I have no idea how this works elsewhere - that's the reason for the "US resident" clarification.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    People are equally stupid/greedy around the world. Different countries have different laws though, and that makes a major difference.
- gemstones 3y ago
  There are things which come with being the richest country and a really populous one - you're targeted by all kinds of scammers who view you as the best target. Similar to how startups try to serve the U.S. market since it's 300 million relatively wealthy people. You could start your startup in Germany, but is the market there for what you're doing? Scammers use the same logic.
- bluGill 3y ago
  In the US if your credit card number is compromised you are legally out at most $50 (I haven't checked in 20 years so this may have changed, my comment is at least partially historical). In almost all cases the bank will just wave that $50 as they are already paying the rest. If your debit card is compromised the money comes from your account and legally they don't have to return it to you, instead you need to figure out who defrauded you and collect (my info is 20 years out of date so this is almost certainly wrong), though in practice the banks will probably return your money and collect on your behalf but this takes a month. Note that the above is about the number, which is not secure in any situation. You don't need to have someones credit card, you just need to know the numbers. If you compromise an insecure website and get these details (bank rules don't allow storing the numbers, but if the website doesn't follow the rules). You can also take a picture of a card as someone is scanning it. Europe went to the chip and pin system, plus a system where they bring cards readers to each table because they did not have the above protection for credit cards. Thus in Europe you would be a fool to let your waiter take your credit card to a backroom to pay for a meal because the waiter can then copy the numbers and/or the magstripe, and then use your credit card after returning the physical one to you (again, this is 20 years out of date, laws have changed but I don't know how!). Since the US has (20 years ago) better consumer protection laws around credit cards, people didn't care that chip+pin was more secure as practically it didn't make any difference, and for a while banks figured it wasn't worth caring. Once banks started caring everyone switched to the chip in the US - but we mostly don't use a PIN as the annoyance of needing to remember a PIN isn't worth putting on consumers here. (also Europe has made the portable terminals cheap so you find a lot of portable terminals here as well so cards are less likely to leave the owners hands thus making the PIN less important)
lodovic 3y ago
If I use a credit card, I pay up to 20% on the outstanding amount. If I use my debit card, I get interest on the money that I don't spend. I also cannot spend more than what is in my account. If there is a charge I disagree with, I can easily reverse it without any cost. And I have never met anyone who had a fraudulent charge (without being dumb). To me, I cannot understand why anyone would use a credit card unless debit isn't accepted. I use that card maybe once a year for paying toll on the highway.
- goodbyesf 3y ago
  > If I use a credit card, I pay up to 20% on the outstanding amount. Key is never having outstanding debt. Pay your credit card balance in full. Most people with credit cards do this. I have never met anyone who paid any interest on their credit card because everyone I know pays it in full each month. > And I have never met anyone who had a fraudulent charge (without being dumb). And? The point is if it happens, you are far safer with a credit card than a debit card. Once the money is gone from the credit card, it's the credit card companies problem. Once the money is gone from your debit, it's your problem. > To me, I cannot understand why anyone would use a credit card unless debit isn't accepted. Because credit card is more secure. As the OP already told you. As long as you have financial discipline, using a credit card is smarter than using a debit. It's a simple concept.
- ATMLOTTOBEER 3y ago
  Paying your credit card off fully every month ensures you don’t pay any interest (use it like a debit card). Wrt the earning interest point, consider that with a credit card you still get interest on the money you don’t spend, and you can also collect interest on the money you do spend (eg I buy something for $100 on the 15th, I can collect interest on the $100 until I have to actually pay the bill on the 1st of next month). Not to mention that you also pay 1-1.5% less for everything you use a card for due to cashback schemes. I definitely see why it might seem weird the way Americans use credit cards but it is mostly rational.
  - LorenPechtel 3y ago
    Yup. For a responsible user there simply is no downside to using a credit card in most situations.

wpietri 3y ago

Yeah, I don't use rewards or loyalty programs at all; I don't like giving over the headspace to corporate manipulators. But I still use debit cards very carefully because of the better protections from fraud for credit transactions. The rise of the chip card may have fixed that; it's been a long time since I've had a problem. But I'm reluctant to find out.

beaviskhan 3y ago
I will say, it seems better than it used to be in the pre-chip days, but I've had to replace my primary CC once already this year due to an obviously fraudulent charge. To the credit of my bank, it was virtually painless - I had a new card in under 24 hours, and I didn't have to think about the $2000+ charge at all until they confirmed (two months later!) that it was in fact fraud.
ATMLOTTOBEER 3y ago
Agreed. Using flat 1.5% cashback cards with autopay + setting the cashback balance to auto apply to each statement is the convenience compromise I have found

pc86 3y ago

Same. I have a debit card that I literally only ever use to take money out of a secure bank ATM (the ones attached to actual branches), or ID myself at the bank teller. Every single thing I'm actually paying for goes on one a handful of cards.

Aardwolf 3y ago

> The reason is that in the event of a fraudulent charge Not sure if a fraudulent charge of a debit card is a thing I ever heard of in Europe. These cards have also been using chips for over 20 years. Maybe they work differently here. To me credit cards sound less secure than debit cards: debit cards have chips and pin codes. With credit cards, knowing the number is in theory enough (they have digital verification now too though). Also, with debit cards, you put it in the payment terminal yourself. With credit cards, in the US I've had the waiters in restaurants taking your credit card from your table, walking to somewhere else with it, and giving it back to you later. I had never seen that before (In Europe, they carry a portable payment thingie in which you can put/tap credit or debit cards to the table). How is that more secure? They could easily copy the number there.

ezfe 3y ago
That credit cards don't have PIN codes has nothing to do with them being credit cards vs debit cards, it's just a choice by the industry to not institute them.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ianburrell 3y ago
  It is less that cards don't have PINs for the chip, but that they still have magnetic stripes. It is still possible to skim the card info. I assume that there is mandate to update equipment but I still see registers with swipe. Issuers can distribute cards without magstripe in 2027. But they keep pushing the date out.
  - efreak 3y ago
    IIRC with most credit card purchases in the US, if the retailer only takes magnetic strips, they're liable themselves; if the issuing bank doesn't offer EMV cards, then they're liable; after that is the credit card company I believe, who has an option to put up to $50 liability on the owner (though they rarely do).

dfxm12 3y ago

There is zero chance that I, a US resident, will ever use debit cards for anything. Does being a US resident have any meaning here? I mean, does the rest of the world not secure credit card payments, or does the rest of the world secure debit card payments like the US secures credit card payment?

beaviskhan 3y ago
I assume the rest of the world is less stupid/greedy than the US here, but honestly I have no idea how this works elsewhere - that's the reason for the "US resident" clarification.
- bluGill 3y ago
  People are equally stupid/greedy around the world. Different countries have different laws though, and that makes a major difference.
gemstones 3y ago
There are things which come with being the richest country and a really populous one - you're targeted by all kinds of scammers who view you as the best target. Similar to how startups try to serve the U.S. market since it's 300 million relatively wealthy people. You could start your startup in Germany, but is the market there for what you're doing? Scammers use the same logic.
bluGill 3y ago
In the US if your credit card number is compromised you are legally out at most $50 (I haven't checked in 20 years so this may have changed, my comment is at least partially historical). In almost all cases the bank will just wave that $50 as they are already paying the rest. If your debit card is compromised the money comes from your account and legally they don't have to return it to you, instead you need to figure out who defrauded you and collect (my info is 20 years out of date so this is almost certainly wrong), though in practice the banks will probably return your money and collect on your behalf but this takes a month. Note that the above is about the number, which is not secure in any situation. You don't need to have someones credit card, you just need to know the numbers. If you compromise an insecure website and get these details (bank rules don't allow storing the numbers, but if the website doesn't follow the rules). You can also take a picture of a card as someone is scanning it. Europe went to the chip and pin system, plus a system where they bring cards readers to each table because they did not have the above protection for credit cards. Thus in Europe you would be a fool to let your waiter take your credit card to a backroom to pay for a meal because the waiter can then copy the numbers and/or the magstripe, and then use your credit card after returning the physical one to you (again, this is 20 years out of date, laws have changed but I don't know how!). Since the US has (20 years ago) better consumer protection laws around credit cards, people didn't care that chip+pin was more secure as practically it didn't make any difference, and for a while banks figured it wasn't worth caring. Once banks started caring everyone switched to the chip in the US - but we mostly don't use a PIN as the annoyance of needing to remember a PIN isn't worth putting on consumers here. (also Europe has made the portable terminals cheap so you find a lot of portable terminals here as well so cards are less likely to leave the owners hands thus making the PIN less important)

lodovic 3y ago

If I use a credit card, I pay up to 20% on the outstanding amount. If I use my debit card, I get interest on the money that I don't spend. I also cannot spend more than what is in my account. If there is a charge I disagree with, I can easily reverse it without any cost. And I have never met anyone who had a fraudulent charge (without being dumb). To me, I cannot understand why anyone would use a credit card unless debit isn't accepted. I use that card maybe once a year for paying toll on the highway.

goodbyesf 3y ago
> If I use a credit card, I pay up to 20% on the outstanding amount. Key is never having outstanding debt. Pay your credit card balance in full. Most people with credit cards do this. I have never met anyone who paid any interest on their credit card because everyone I know pays it in full each month. > And I have never met anyone who had a fraudulent charge (without being dumb). And? The point is if it happens, you are far safer with a credit card than a debit card. Once the money is gone from the credit card, it's the credit card companies problem. Once the money is gone from your debit, it's your problem. > To me, I cannot understand why anyone would use a credit card unless debit isn't accepted. Because credit card is more secure. As the OP already told you. As long as you have financial discipline, using a credit card is smarter than using a debit. It's a simple concept.
ATMLOTTOBEER 3y ago
Paying your credit card off fully every month ensures you don’t pay any interest (use it like a debit card). Wrt the earning interest point, consider that with a credit card you still get interest on the money you don’t spend, and you can also collect interest on the money you do spend (eg I buy something for $100 on the 15th, I can collect interest on the $100 until I have to actually pay the bill on the 1st of next month). Not to mention that you also pay 1-1.5% less for everything you use a card for due to cashback schemes. I definitely see why it might seem weird the way Americans use credit cards but it is mostly rational.
- LorenPechtel 3y ago
  Yup. For a responsible user there simply is no downside to using a credit card in most situations.