7 ms·

VoCore – Coin-sized Linux Computer

141 points by vinnyglennon 3y ago

oneplane 3y ago
This has been reposted many times over the last ~10 years: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=vocore https://hn.algolia.com/?q=vocore While it's not useless, it's also so underpowered, you might as well stick to the ESP32 family. MIPS 24k is not great, even if you run the smallest linux distro ever. It's essentially WRT54G tech from 2002. As with all hardware like this, it's the ecosystem that makes or breaks it, not the product on its own. That said, it's survived this long so it must be a good fit for some people out there.
- password4321 3y ago
  Specifically https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31395379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31395379 1.5 years ago with 68 comments. > performance lower than a Pi 1
  - Narishma 3y ago
    Physical size and power requirements are also lower than a Pi 1.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  Linux is still Linux though. Having the proper Linux full-sized TCP stack, however slow it is, is probably more robust in more corner-cases (and possibly has more features, like TCP_CORK, that could lead to better performance anyway). Honestly? I think a microcomputer of 1980s or 1990s level is still important for hobbyists. Rasp. Pi is taking the bulk of it but Rasp. Pi still uses too much power for a lot of tasks IMO. BeagleBone is good to play with in my experience (1/2 the power usage of Rasp. Pi, and more realtime features like PRUs or even Cortex M4 cores on the more recent ones). So that actually matches my use cases more. But finding even smaller chips that are proper full sized microprocessors, with a proper application environment / user-mode and applications is still intriguing to me. ---------- You're right. This is very similar to ESP32 on a specs perspective. But... "Proper Linux" is a huge difference and well worth the... what? $15 difference?
  - helpfulContrib 3y ago
    Think scales of magnitude. For a one-/few- off project, okay, you might not notice the difference of a hundred bucks. But if you do things at scale, every single penny counts. Yes, penny. And one thing about the embedded Linux aspect - yes, this is a path for Linux hackers to get into embedded, and perfectly valid. BUT. ESP32 also has many things going for it. Other operating systems, for example, equally fun and friendly to code for, as Linux. FreeRTOS is fun. So many other things, too .. endless great bits of community software components that can be picked and placed into your project, which will absolutely allow you to build a great product. The point is, if you can do Linux, you can do the ESP32 ecosystem too. They are approximately relevant to each other. Disclaimer: I have done multiple projects in both realms, for many, many years (minix-list) and am quite comfortable with the cyclomatic complexity of writing code for either Linux or ESP32. They are, to me, flat. YMMV.
    - dragontamer 3y ago
      Hobbyists and even professionals are looking at 1000 SKUs to maybe 10,000 SKU projects. Knowing how to code and design at the 10,000 unit level is important. At this level, paying $3 per oscillator module for 2% higher reliability is more important than paying for a $0.50 XTAL and trying to save $2.50 per SKU. Because the bulk of the costs are development, and because you are likely building a reputation as an elite artisan selling highly custom goods for a niche audience. The $20,000 difference of a $2.50 module with slightly better reliability is absolutely the right choice to make.
      - helpfulContrib 3y ago
        Higher reliability? Sorry, that is a fallacy .. you're not paying for reliability at scale in either the ESP32 or Embedded Linux scales. You're paying for what functionality you can attain.. in the ESP32 case, its mighty limited - but as all embedded devs know, challenge accepted - and in the Linux case its mighty complex/hefty and you have to pay to play, in the BOM costs anyway .. Either way, the 'reliability' factor is misguided, in my opinion. This is not at all why you choose either path. Both platforms are functionally equivalent. The only difference is capacity.
swsieber 3y ago
So, something I've really wanted to do, but don't have the chops for is this: Make a small dongle that plugs into an ethernet jack and sets up an wifi access point that is run over a VPN. e.g. I could give one to my friend and any device they connect would connect to my VPN. a) Is that possible? b) Would that get around Nintendo Switch NAT issues? The last time this chip came up I got the idea, but I'm not sure how doable it is. Edit: I forgot that a stretch goal would be to change the setup. You could have the VoCore connect to a wifi network, and then plug the USB side into a device (nintendo switch doc or computer) to emulate a USB ethernet adapter, but of course send the traffic over wifi through the VPN.
- shrubble 3y ago
  The ESP32 chips have the ability to drive both Ethernet and Wifi. There is some onboard hardware accelerated encryption also. So in that case you could make the physical device easily enough. VPN can often do proxy-arp so that the NAT issue would not appear. Whether it would give you enough performance, unknown.
  - swsieber 3y ago
    Thank you!! I hadn't hear of proxy-arp, but it seems like from cursory google searches that reading up on it will lead me down a promising path.
- peddling-brink 3y ago
  Sounds like you are looking for a travel router. GLinet makes some good ones. I have one of these: https://a.co/d/gbWTmjS https://a.co/d/gbWTmjS I use it to connect to hotel WiFi then provide its own WiFi (or Ethernet) connection to my devices. It can connect to vpn to route the traffic like you mention. Edit: I should also mention that it’s very doable to DIY this using OpenWRT, and some compatible SBC that has WiFi and Ethernet. You don’t want something crazy underpowered like VoCore for this.
  - swsieber 3y ago
    Hmm... that's a reasonably priced prepackaged solution. Thanks for pointing that out. I am tempted to still use VoCore since it appears to run OpenWRT out of the box and I'm really only aiming to support a single device. Hmm..
MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
The NanoPi Air can be had with Wifi and BT: https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=69&product_id=151 https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/product...
1-6 3y ago
At this point, the interfaces are larger than the compute unit.
- dragontamer 3y ago
  The thing that pisses me off at this level is how much power interfaces draw. The chip here probably draws 50mA. The WiFi draws 200mA, while wired Ethernet probably draws like 100mA. There are specifically low powered communications like Bluetooth, ZigBee, or the new SPE Ethernet standards. But they are niche and more expensive to work with. So you're pretty much paying for lower power (and lower performance) on a rather consistent basis.
  - nxobject 3y ago
    That's a good observation – it aligns with why we have vintage personal computers that have comparatively large battery lives on relatively low-powered power sources. The TRS-80 Model 100 had 20 hours of active use on 4 AAs, the eMate had up to 28 hours on 4 AAs as well. I imagine the difference is due to both limited displays, lack of networking beyond serial and POTS modems, etc.
- intrasight 3y ago
  That has always been true
- imtringued 3y ago
  I don't know about you but my mainboard is pretty big...
synergy20 3y ago
Size looks great, pricing not so. Orange Pi Zero LTS, RPI zero etc might be better. ESP32 also good and cheaper but it does not run Linux well.
- blacksmith_tb 3y ago
  Unless you really, really needed to minimize the footprint, I would pick an RPi Zero any day for having reasonable software support. I have a Lichee Pi in a drawer somewhere, I could never even get it to boot...
CameronNemo 3y ago
Maybe this fits the bill? https://www.cnx-software.com/2023/06/13/compulab-ucm-imx93-miniature-nxp-i-mx-93-module-with-wifi-5-bluetooth-5-3/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2023/06/13/compulab-ucm-imx93-m...
- sudobash1 3y ago
  That requires a carrier board though.
dark-star 3y ago
This guy is amazing. This started out as a Kickstarter, for something like 25€, and for that price point, it was unbeatable. Especially if size was important. Heck, even at the current price point it's not too shabby (if size matters). And where most other Kickstarters abandon their projects once they released it, moving on to something different, this guy on the other hand still provides updates (new hardware, updated drivers, etc.), to a point where even big companies could really learn from. Sure, the VoCore might not compete with a fancy ASUS router or FritzBox, but that was never the intended target.
rbanffy 3y ago
This is a bit larger but a lot faster.\ https://octavosystems.com/2019/04/12/osd335x-c-sip-dead-bug/ https://octavosystems.com/2019/04/12/osd335x-c-sip-dead-bug/
iancmceachern 3y ago
The other thing folks haven't mentioned is that things like the esp32 have support from thr Arduino IDE and a bunch of other software stacks that make it way easier, and significantly lower the barrier of entry to use these things for non-professionals. Professionals choose chips/modules based on an entirely different set of needs/requirements and wouldn't use this module for say, a new embedded product. It's cool, but kind of sits between 2 niches....
utopcell 3y ago
A better approach would be a solution based on an Allwinner V3S or S3, since they have DRAM embedded in them. For example, the Lichee Pi Zero [1] is 45mmx25mm (instead of ~25mm^2 for the VoCore) but with a USB and a microSD slot on the PCB. [1] https://licheepizero.us/ https://licheepizero.us/
snvzz 3y ago
>MT7628, 580 MHz, MIPS 24K Legacy ISA. I'll wait for RISC-V version.
- helf 3y ago
  ... which means literally decades of development tools and support. Amazes me how techies jump on whatever hotness bandwagons without a second thought.
  - snvzz 3y ago
    >... which means literally decades of development tools and support. Debian (largest Linux distribution) just removed mipsel from official ports. Other mips variants will eventually follow the same fate, as well as the rest of legacy ISAs. It is no longer sensible to choose anything else than RISC-V on a new design.
    - worik 3y ago
      > It is no longer sensible to choose anything else than RISC-V on a new design. That is a bit hyperbolic. Whilst I share your enthusiasm for Risc-V it is not the only game in town
  - userbinator 3y ago
    Look at the poster's history. (spoiler: RISC-V! RISC-V! RISC-V!!!1111)
  - imtringued 3y ago
    Well, if he is willing to wait it means he wasn't in the target market to begin with.
axelthegerman 3y ago
I like that they offer a bunch of different displays with it. That being said does anyone know where I can find a smaller and waterproof display?? I was thinking to tinker with building something like the Beeline navigation - https://beeline.co https://beeline.co - but without all the propriatary software. Of course will need a bigger brain than a VoCore to power that

141 points by vinnyglennon 3y ago

This has been reposted many times over the last ~10 years: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=vocore https://hn.algolia.com/?q=vocore While it's not useless, it's also so underpowered, you might as well stick to the ESP32 family. MIPS 24k is not great, even if you run the smallest linux distro ever. It's essentially WRT54G tech from 2002. As with all hardware like this, it's the ecosystem that makes or breaks it, not the product on its own. That said, it's survived this long so it must be a good fit for some people out there.

password4321 3y ago
Specifically https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31395379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31395379 1.5 years ago with 68 comments. > performance lower than a Pi 1
- Narishma 3y ago
  Physical size and power requirements are also lower than a Pi 1.
dragontamer 3y ago
Linux is still Linux though. Having the proper Linux full-sized TCP stack, however slow it is, is probably more robust in more corner-cases (and possibly has more features, like TCP_CORK, that could lead to better performance anyway). Honestly? I think a microcomputer of 1980s or 1990s level is still important for hobbyists. Rasp. Pi is taking the bulk of it but Rasp. Pi still uses too much power for a lot of tasks IMO. BeagleBone is good to play with in my experience (1/2 the power usage of Rasp. Pi, and more realtime features like PRUs or even Cortex M4 cores on the more recent ones). So that actually matches my use cases more. But finding even smaller chips that are proper full sized microprocessors, with a proper application environment / user-mode and applications is still intriguing to me. ---------- You're right. This is very similar to ESP32 on a specs perspective. But... "Proper Linux" is a huge difference and well worth the... what? $15 difference?
- helpfulContrib 3y ago
  Think scales of magnitude. For a one-/few- off project, okay, you might not notice the difference of a hundred bucks. But if you do things at scale, every single penny counts. Yes, penny. And one thing about the embedded Linux aspect - yes, this is a path for Linux hackers to get into embedded, and perfectly valid. BUT. ESP32 also has many things going for it. Other operating systems, for example, equally fun and friendly to code for, as Linux. FreeRTOS is fun. So many other things, too .. endless great bits of community software components that can be picked and placed into your project, which will absolutely allow you to build a great product. The point is, if you can do Linux, you can do the ESP32 ecosystem too. They are approximately relevant to each other. Disclaimer: I have done multiple projects in both realms, for many, many years (minix-list) and am quite comfortable with the cyclomatic complexity of writing code for either Linux or ESP32. They are, to me, flat. YMMV.
  - dragontamer 3y ago
    Hobbyists and even professionals are looking at 1000 SKUs to maybe 10,000 SKU projects. Knowing how to code and design at the 10,000 unit level is important. At this level, paying $3 per oscillator module for 2% higher reliability is more important than paying for a $0.50 XTAL and trying to save $2.50 per SKU. Because the bulk of the costs are development, and because you are likely building a reputation as an elite artisan selling highly custom goods for a niche audience. The $20,000 difference of a $2.50 module with slightly better reliability is absolutely the right choice to make.
    - helpfulContrib 3y ago
      Higher reliability? Sorry, that is a fallacy .. you're not paying for reliability at scale in either the ESP32 or Embedded Linux scales. You're paying for what functionality you can attain.. in the ESP32 case, its mighty limited - but as all embedded devs know, challenge accepted - and in the Linux case its mighty complex/hefty and you have to pay to play, in the BOM costs anyway .. Either way, the 'reliability' factor is misguided, in my opinion. This is not at all why you choose either path. Both platforms are functionally equivalent. The only difference is capacity.

swsieber 3y ago

So, something I've really wanted to do, but don't have the chops for is this: Make a small dongle that plugs into an ethernet jack and sets up an wifi access point that is run over a VPN. e.g. I could give one to my friend and any device they connect would connect to my VPN. a) Is that possible? b) Would that get around Nintendo Switch NAT issues? The last time this chip came up I got the idea, but I'm not sure how doable it is. Edit: I forgot that a stretch goal would be to change the setup. You could have the VoCore connect to a wifi network, and then plug the USB side into a device (nintendo switch doc or computer) to emulate a USB ethernet adapter, but of course send the traffic over wifi through the VPN.

shrubble 3y ago
The ESP32 chips have the ability to drive both Ethernet and Wifi. There is some onboard hardware accelerated encryption also. So in that case you could make the physical device easily enough. VPN can often do proxy-arp so that the NAT issue would not appear. Whether it would give you enough performance, unknown.
- swsieber 3y ago
  Thank you!! I hadn't hear of proxy-arp, but it seems like from cursory google searches that reading up on it will lead me down a promising path.
peddling-brink 3y ago
Sounds like you are looking for a travel router. GLinet makes some good ones. I have one of these: https://a.co/d/gbWTmjS https://a.co/d/gbWTmjS I use it to connect to hotel WiFi then provide its own WiFi (or Ethernet) connection to my devices. It can connect to vpn to route the traffic like you mention. Edit: I should also mention that it’s very doable to DIY this using OpenWRT, and some compatible SBC that has WiFi and Ethernet. You don’t want something crazy underpowered like VoCore for this.
- swsieber 3y ago
  Hmm... that's a reasonably priced prepackaged solution. Thanks for pointing that out. I am tempted to still use VoCore since it appears to run OpenWRT out of the box and I'm really only aiming to support a single device. Hmm..

MrBuddyCasino 3y ago

The NanoPi Air can be had with Wifi and BT: https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=69&product_id=151 https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/product...

1-6 3y ago

At this point, the interfaces are larger than the compute unit.

dragontamer 3y ago
The thing that pisses me off at this level is how much power interfaces draw. The chip here probably draws 50mA. The WiFi draws 200mA, while wired Ethernet probably draws like 100mA. There are specifically low powered communications like Bluetooth, ZigBee, or the new SPE Ethernet standards. But they are niche and more expensive to work with. So you're pretty much paying for lower power (and lower performance) on a rather consistent basis.
- nxobject 3y ago
  That's a good observation – it aligns with why we have vintage personal computers that have comparatively large battery lives on relatively low-powered power sources. The TRS-80 Model 100 had 20 hours of active use on 4 AAs, the eMate had up to 28 hours on 4 AAs as well. I imagine the difference is due to both limited displays, lack of networking beyond serial and POTS modems, etc.
intrasight 3y ago
That has always been true
imtringued 3y ago
I don't know about you but my mainboard is pretty big...

synergy20 3y ago

Size looks great, pricing not so. Orange Pi Zero LTS, RPI zero etc might be better. ESP32 also good and cheaper but it does not run Linux well.

blacksmith_tb 3y ago
Unless you really, really needed to minimize the footprint, I would pick an RPi Zero any day for having reasonable software support. I have a Lichee Pi in a drawer somewhere, I could never even get it to boot...

CameronNemo 3y ago

Maybe this fits the bill? https://www.cnx-software.com/2023/06/13/compulab-ucm-imx93-miniature-nxp-i-mx-93-module-with-wifi-5-bluetooth-5-3/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2023/06/13/compulab-ucm-imx93-m...

sudobash1 3y ago
That requires a carrier board though.

dark-star 3y ago

This guy is amazing. This started out as a Kickstarter, for something like 25€, and for that price point, it was unbeatable. Especially if size was important. Heck, even at the current price point it's not too shabby (if size matters). And where most other Kickstarters abandon their projects once they released it, moving on to something different, this guy on the other hand still provides updates (new hardware, updated drivers, etc.), to a point where even big companies could really learn from. Sure, the VoCore might not compete with a fancy ASUS router or FritzBox, but that was never the intended target.

rbanffy 3y ago

This is a bit larger but a lot faster.\ https://octavosystems.com/2019/04/12/osd335x-c-sip-dead-bug/ https://octavosystems.com/2019/04/12/osd335x-c-sip-dead-bug/

iancmceachern 3y ago

The other thing folks haven't mentioned is that things like the esp32 have support from thr Arduino IDE and a bunch of other software stacks that make it way easier, and significantly lower the barrier of entry to use these things for non-professionals. Professionals choose chips/modules based on an entirely different set of needs/requirements and wouldn't use this module for say, a new embedded product. It's cool, but kind of sits between 2 niches....

utopcell 3y ago

A better approach would be a solution based on an Allwinner V3S or S3, since they have DRAM embedded in them. For example, the Lichee Pi Zero [1] is 45mmx25mm (instead of ~25mm^2 for the VoCore) but with a USB and a microSD slot on the PCB. [1] https://licheepizero.us/ https://licheepizero.us/

snvzz 3y ago

>MT7628, 580 MHz, MIPS 24K Legacy ISA. I'll wait for RISC-V version.

helf 3y ago
... which means literally decades of development tools and support. Amazes me how techies jump on whatever hotness bandwagons without a second thought.
- snvzz 3y ago
  >... which means literally decades of development tools and support. Debian (largest Linux distribution) just removed mipsel from official ports. Other mips variants will eventually follow the same fate, as well as the rest of legacy ISAs. It is no longer sensible to choose anything else than RISC-V on a new design.
  - worik 3y ago
    > It is no longer sensible to choose anything else than RISC-V on a new design. That is a bit hyperbolic. Whilst I share your enthusiasm for Risc-V it is not the only game in town
- userbinator 3y ago
  Look at the poster's history. (spoiler: RISC-V! RISC-V! RISC-V!!!1111)
- imtringued 3y ago
  Well, if he is willing to wait it means he wasn't in the target market to begin with.

axelthegerman 3y ago

I like that they offer a bunch of different displays with it. That being said does anyone know where I can find a smaller and waterproof display?? I was thinking to tinker with building something like the Beeline navigation - https://beeline.co https://beeline.co - but without all the propriatary software. Of course will need a bigger brain than a VoCore to power that