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I don't quite get this, I've been using Debian-esque Linux since like 1997 in various forms and have had problems with apt-get/apt maybe five times since then i

I don't quite get this, I've been using Debian-esque Linux since like 1997 in various forms and have had problems with apt-get/apt maybe five times since then in total and it's always fixable with a little work. I've seen this a lot and I've haven't really understood the problems. I saw Linus from LTT brick his installation (in Pop_OS! I think?) but that was a clear user error.

eddythompson80 3y ago
YMMV. I just bricked a Debian install last month by using the package manager to install display drivers then trying to uninstall it to try a different driver. Had to go editing files in the console on a 4k display and just cross my fingers.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>but that was a clear user error A user error that can happen to any user who isn't Linux savvy and just wants to paly games, and not learn how a package manager works, and that it can uninstall your desktop environment if you aren't proficient with Linux, is no user error but OS error. How many MacOS or Windows users expect that going through the installation steps of Steam, it can uninstall your desktop environment? For that user demographic, that is a clear OS issue.
- pbhjpbhj 3y ago
  There was a Steam package error, the error warned it might be temporary, the installer said it wouldn't continue because that would remove "popos-desktop" amongst other things. So, he opened a console (like any user?), then used apt-get ... which had a WARNING ... "This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!". He then had to type "Yes, do as I say!" in order to "do something potentially harmful" ... and then, what a surprise it did something harmful! That's a user error that will only happen to people who are cocky, people who are idiots, or people trying to firm up their long held stance that 'Linux isn't for gaming'. I saw the LTT video the following day to release, loaded a VM up, installed Pop_OS (my first time) and installed Steam, no issues. Very simple. All button clicking. >going through the installation steps of Steam // That's mis-characterisation, he went through the Steam install steps (click install by the Steam icon), the OS told him there was an error and refused to do it. End. Then he went sudo-ing and ignoring warnings. "You can delete System32 this OS isn't ready for users!". You'll tell me now installs never fail on Windows, presumably, despite having experienced them myself.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    That would happen to any other user trying linux for the first time because not every user knows they should first update their packages before trying to install something because why doesn't the OS do it automatically like any other OS? It's 100% an OS UX error you're trying to spin into an user error.
    - pbhjpbhj 3y ago
      It's an application error (a transient error with Steam), MS Windows doesn't even offer general application updates.
kevingadd 3y ago
The problem isn't "apt" so much as "the system apt packages do weird things and as a result I can't build this open source package" or "I updated Ubuntu and now varnish and znc don't work even though I was using the system packages" or "the system apt package for mono is just plain broken and it conflicts with one I build from source, so I have to uninstall it" mundane gripe: Uninstalling an apt package is too complicated and it is beyond me why it isn't a single command in 2023. I have to skim stackoverflow answers every time I need to do it (multiple times a year).

eddythompson80 3y ago

YMMV. I just bricked a Debian install last month by using the package manager to install display drivers then trying to uninstall it to try a different driver. Had to go editing files in the console on a 4k display and just cross my fingers.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>but that was a clear user error A user error that can happen to any user who isn't Linux savvy and just wants to paly games, and not learn how a package manager works, and that it can uninstall your desktop environment if you aren't proficient with Linux, is no user error but OS error. How many MacOS or Windows users expect that going through the installation steps of Steam, it can uninstall your desktop environment? For that user demographic, that is a clear OS issue.

pbhjpbhj 3y ago
There was a Steam package error, the error warned it might be temporary, the installer said it wouldn't continue because that would remove "popos-desktop" amongst other things. So, he opened a console (like any user?), then used apt-get ... which had a WARNING ... "This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!". He then had to type "Yes, do as I say!" in order to "do something potentially harmful" ... and then, what a surprise it did something harmful! That's a user error that will only happen to people who are cocky, people who are idiots, or people trying to firm up their long held stance that 'Linux isn't for gaming'. I saw the LTT video the following day to release, loaded a VM up, installed Pop_OS (my first time) and installed Steam, no issues. Very simple. All button clicking. >going through the installation steps of Steam // That's mis-characterisation, he went through the Steam install steps (click install by the Steam icon), the OS told him there was an error and refused to do it. End. Then he went sudo-ing and ignoring warnings. "You can delete System32 this OS isn't ready for users!". You'll tell me now installs never fail on Windows, presumably, despite having experienced them myself.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  That would happen to any other user trying linux for the first time because not every user knows they should first update their packages before trying to install something because why doesn't the OS do it automatically like any other OS? It's 100% an OS UX error you're trying to spin into an user error.
  - pbhjpbhj 3y ago
    It's an application error (a transient error with Steam), MS Windows doesn't even offer general application updates.

kevingadd 3y ago

The problem isn't "apt" so much as "the system apt packages do weird things and as a result I can't build this open source package" or "I updated Ubuntu and now varnish and znc don't work even though I was using the system packages" or "the system apt package for mono is just plain broken and it conflicts with one I build from source, so I have to uninstall it" mundane gripe: Uninstalling an apt package is too complicated and it is beyond me why it isn't a single command in 2023. I have to skim stackoverflow answers every time I need to do it (multiple times a year).