3 ms·

> If you want fast CI you need fast tsc, clang, rustc, etc... not a faster program that calls exec on them Yes and no. Caching stuff and knowing when to run ts

by jve 3y ago

> If you want fast CI you need fast tsc, clang, rustc, etc... not a faster program that calls exec on them Yes and no. Caching stuff and knowing when to run tsc/clang/rustc also improves performance.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bluGill 3y ago
Sure, but you have to be 100% perfect in guessing when the cache file must be rebuilt. If there is any situation at all where you use the cached file when you should have rebuilt your tool is not useful. Note that you can go too far. If you rebuild a file on linux even though the only changes were in a "#ifdef freebsd" (windows, mac...) section that is a waste of time, but not harmful. However we already have tools that do that.
- esafak 3y ago
  This is a solved problem; modern build tools and workflow orchestrators face the same challenge. You declare your inputs for a given task and cache the output as long as the inputs are unchanged, as determined by their hash. So there is no wrong guessing, only an incomplete specification of inputs. It's an elegant solution, if I do say so, and has worked well at companies I've seen it used.
  - duped 3y ago
    It's not a solved problem, very few builds in the wild are deterministic and reproducible. You have to build up the universe from scratch (like guix and nix) for the caching to be sound enough to be reliable. Just because an algorithm exists that can help doesn't mean that the universe of software can fit cleanly into a model where that algorithm is perfect. The other fundamental problem with this model is that it cannot model cyclical dependencies (a degenerate case: glibc needs python which needs glibc). Since you can't hash the output until you've hashed the input, and the input hash depends on the output hash you need a way to break the dependency cycle. Tools have varying ways of mitigating this but it's not exactly "solved" in an elegant sense. And finally, a lot of build steps are faster than hashing their input and outputs. So if you want the utmost performance you need heuristics or a model that allows for some things to be hashed and others to always be considered fresh.
    - danudey 3y ago
      > very few builds in the wild are deterministic and reproducible There's a difference between 'deterministic and reproducible' and 'predictable'. Sure I can (probably) build curl ten times and get ten technically different binaries, but the differences aren't relevant to the functioning of the actual result. Assuming my build environment isn't changing out from underneath me (i.e. if I'm using the same versions of the same dependencies on the same platform with the same compiler toolchain, and I'm not passing in different arguments or environment variables) then the end result should be functionally identical. > You have to build up the universe from scratch (like guix and nix) for the caching to be sound enough to be reliable. This is a false assertion. If I'm building (again, as an example) curl, then I don't need to be rebuilding the kernel, glibc, kerberos, libssh, gnutls, brotli, etc. all in order to get a working curl build; I just need to make sure the libraries and toolchains I have installed are valid. If I create a docker image with all of the dependencies and toolchains preinstalled, and then I build the exact same curl code inside of that docker container on two separate occasions, then the end result is going to be indistinguishable without hashing the build artifacts. > Just because an algorithm exists that can help doesn't mean that the universe of software can fit cleanly into a model where that algorithm is perfect. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be correct for the vast majority of cases (which are not somehow inherently broken already and just haven't failed yet). > a degenerate case: glibc needs python which needs glibc Because you're not rebuilding the entire world (in 99% of cases), this doesn't actually matter. If you're building glibc use the existing build of python that you already have installed, which is the same identical version to the one you used last time you built glibc. If I'm rebuilding glibc, do I also need to rebuild python? If the glibc code hasn't changed, but maybe python has so I get a different result? Well okay, has the python source changed? No? Okay, have the dependencies for python or glibc changed? No? Okay, well problem solved then. I'm not sure why people have this philosophy of "this problem isn't solved because of some imaginary, unrealistic corner case that either shouldn't exist in the first place, isn't actually a real problem, or that no one will run into". In 99% of cases it works, and if it's not right for a particular circumstance then just don't use it in that circumstance. Sometimes makefiles aren't the right tool. Sometimes a GUI isn't the right tool. Let's not argue that we shouldn't have GUIs because sometimes running a command on the CLI is easier, and let's not argue that an extremely basic caching system that makes sane assumptions that are almost always valid isn't a good idea. And the parent is right: if you correctly define your inputs and outputs, then the system works. What those inputs and outputs are is up to you to determine. Maybe for you, the outputs are a working build of glibc, and maybe the inputs are all of the tarballs necessary to build Linux from scratch and a working bootstrap environment, but if all of those inputs and that whole environment are identical to last time, what's the point of rebuilding any of them? Maybe there is one, but that's up to you to determine and model.
  - zelos 3y ago
    From my experience with Gradle, it's fairly tricky at the build tool level, trying to do it at the CI level must surely be harder. If (for example) I change a value in gradle.properties at the top level, do I need to rerun every test in every sub project? You need detailed knowledge of how the build is structured to decide that.
  - yencabulator 3y ago
    Where that world sucks is that it forces you to ignore or duplicate work from the native build system. E.g. Go or Rust know which source files are needed to build something, yet Bazel makes you write that out. No, generating the file isn't "the fix" if you're still committing those generating files into the source control; that's still duplication and manual labor.
- danudey 3y ago
  > you have to be 100% perfect in guessing when the cache file must be rebuilt Or, you make reasonable assumptions that are correct in most cases, and rely on the user to provide hints as to when the cache should be invalidated. Assuming your code, environment variables, and `args` are all factored into invalidating the cache, there are few situations in typical builds where using the cache is a bad idea. The biggest ones I can think of are if your build system is going out and fetching data itself to decide what to do, e.g. if you're downloading source code (e.g. a shared library) from an external source which may have updated it. That said, if you're just arbitrarily pulling down whatever the latest build of libcurl is or something, you're going to have a bad time eventually anyway, so you should either put a static version into an arg or just put the download into a separate step; at which point the cache will correctly invalidate when it's changed. Maybe if a build is only valid for 90 days from the build date or something (e.g. a preview build) and that's built into the binary at compile time, but in that case you can pass that in as an arg anyway and then your cache is going to be invalid every morning regardless. I'm not going to say it's never an issue, but the same code with the same environment and the same arguments, built on the same platform with the same versions of the same dependencies, using the same versions of the same tooling to run the same commands and copy the same artifacts to the same locations should very nearly never produce a valid output now which is not an equally valid output in the future unless it is fetching and acting on external information (which can be easily parameterized).

by jve 3y ago

> If you want fast CI you need fast tsc, clang, rustc, etc... not a faster program that calls exec on them Yes and no. Caching stuff and knowing when to run tsc/clang/rustc also improves performance.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

bluGill 3y ago

Sure, but you have to be 100% perfect in guessing when the cache file must be rebuilt. If there is any situation at all where you use the cached file when you should have rebuilt your tool is not useful. Note that you can go too far. If you rebuild a file on linux even though the only changes were in a "#ifdef freebsd" (windows, mac...) section that is a waste of time, but not harmful. However we already have tools that do that.

esafak 3y ago
This is a solved problem; modern build tools and workflow orchestrators face the same challenge. You declare your inputs for a given task and cache the output as long as the inputs are unchanged, as determined by their hash. So there is no wrong guessing, only an incomplete specification of inputs. It's an elegant solution, if I do say so, and has worked well at companies I've seen it used.
- duped 3y ago
  It's not a solved problem, very few builds in the wild are deterministic and reproducible. You have to build up the universe from scratch (like guix and nix) for the caching to be sound enough to be reliable. Just because an algorithm exists that can help doesn't mean that the universe of software can fit cleanly into a model where that algorithm is perfect. The other fundamental problem with this model is that it cannot model cyclical dependencies (a degenerate case: glibc needs python which needs glibc). Since you can't hash the output until you've hashed the input, and the input hash depends on the output hash you need a way to break the dependency cycle. Tools have varying ways of mitigating this but it's not exactly "solved" in an elegant sense. And finally, a lot of build steps are faster than hashing their input and outputs. So if you want the utmost performance you need heuristics or a model that allows for some things to be hashed and others to always be considered fresh.
  - danudey 3y ago
    > very few builds in the wild are deterministic and reproducible There's a difference between 'deterministic and reproducible' and 'predictable'. Sure I can (probably) build curl ten times and get ten technically different binaries, but the differences aren't relevant to the functioning of the actual result. Assuming my build environment isn't changing out from underneath me (i.e. if I'm using the same versions of the same dependencies on the same platform with the same compiler toolchain, and I'm not passing in different arguments or environment variables) then the end result should be functionally identical. > You have to build up the universe from scratch (like guix and nix) for the caching to be sound enough to be reliable. This is a false assertion. If I'm building (again, as an example) curl, then I don't need to be rebuilding the kernel, glibc, kerberos, libssh, gnutls, brotli, etc. all in order to get a working curl build; I just need to make sure the libraries and toolchains I have installed are valid. If I create a docker image with all of the dependencies and toolchains preinstalled, and then I build the exact same curl code inside of that docker container on two separate occasions, then the end result is going to be indistinguishable without hashing the build artifacts. > Just because an algorithm exists that can help doesn't mean that the universe of software can fit cleanly into a model where that algorithm is perfect. It doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be correct for the vast majority of cases (which are not somehow inherently broken already and just haven't failed yet). > a degenerate case: glibc needs python which needs glibc Because you're not rebuilding the entire world (in 99% of cases), this doesn't actually matter. If you're building glibc use the existing build of python that you already have installed, which is the same identical version to the one you used last time you built glibc. If I'm rebuilding glibc, do I also need to rebuild python? If the glibc code hasn't changed, but maybe python has so I get a different result? Well okay, has the python source changed? No? Okay, have the dependencies for python or glibc changed? No? Okay, well problem solved then. I'm not sure why people have this philosophy of "this problem isn't solved because of some imaginary, unrealistic corner case that either shouldn't exist in the first place, isn't actually a real problem, or that no one will run into". In 99% of cases it works, and if it's not right for a particular circumstance then just don't use it in that circumstance. Sometimes makefiles aren't the right tool. Sometimes a GUI isn't the right tool. Let's not argue that we shouldn't have GUIs because sometimes running a command on the CLI is easier, and let's not argue that an extremely basic caching system that makes sane assumptions that are almost always valid isn't a good idea. And the parent is right: if you correctly define your inputs and outputs, then the system works. What those inputs and outputs are is up to you to determine. Maybe for you, the outputs are a working build of glibc, and maybe the inputs are all of the tarballs necessary to build Linux from scratch and a working bootstrap environment, but if all of those inputs and that whole environment are identical to last time, what's the point of rebuilding any of them? Maybe there is one, but that's up to you to determine and model.
- zelos 3y ago
  From my experience with Gradle, it's fairly tricky at the build tool level, trying to do it at the CI level must surely be harder. If (for example) I change a value in gradle.properties at the top level, do I need to rerun every test in every sub project? You need detailed knowledge of how the build is structured to decide that.
- yencabulator 3y ago
  Where that world sucks is that it forces you to ignore or duplicate work from the native build system. E.g. Go or Rust know which source files are needed to build something, yet Bazel makes you write that out. No, generating the file isn't "the fix" if you're still committing those generating files into the source control; that's still duplication and manual labor.
danudey 3y ago
> you have to be 100% perfect in guessing when the cache file must be rebuilt Or, you make reasonable assumptions that are correct in most cases, and rely on the user to provide hints as to when the cache should be invalidated. Assuming your code, environment variables, and `args` are all factored into invalidating the cache, there are few situations in typical builds where using the cache is a bad idea. The biggest ones I can think of are if your build system is going out and fetching data itself to decide what to do, e.g. if you're downloading source code (e.g. a shared library) from an external source which may have updated it. That said, if you're just arbitrarily pulling down whatever the latest build of libcurl is or something, you're going to have a bad time eventually anyway, so you should either put a static version into an arg or just put the download into a separate step; at which point the cache will correctly invalidate when it's changed. Maybe if a build is only valid for 90 days from the build date or something (e.g. a preview build) and that's built into the binary at compile time, but in that case you can pass that in as an arg anyway and then your cache is going to be invalid every morning regardless. I'm not going to say it's never an issue, but the same code with the same environment and the same arguments, built on the same platform with the same versions of the same dependencies, using the same versions of the same tooling to run the same commands and copy the same artifacts to the same locations should very nearly never produce a valid output now which is not an equally valid output in the future unless it is fetching and acting on external information (which can be easily parameterized).