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Feels like this needs someone to look at this from an industrial design lens. People who come to gas stations to fuel up their cars behave very differently fro

Feels like this needs someone to look at this from an industrial design lens. People who come to gas stations to fuel up their cars behave very differently from people who come to a place to charge, no?

TulliusCicero 3y ago
The underlying difference being that charging takes substantially longer than gas-filling even with very fast chargers?
- tills13 3y ago
  Depends on the charging density. I drove across Canada and, when I knew the next charger was under 200km away I'd "fill up" for maybe 5 minutes and get on with my journey. Unlike an ICE, you want to keep your car between like 10% and 70% while road-tripping for charging efficiency. There are times I'd stop for 30+ minutes but typically I'd go find a place to eat or take a walk at those stops.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  Idk about "substantially longer." Average gas station stop looks to be ~8 minutes. Tesla superchargers can do up to 200 miles in 15 minutes. So 100 miles of range in the same timeframe. And the charging technology is still in the middle of constant improvement.
  - tzs 3y ago
    In the following, "charging" means charging EV batteries or putting gas in an ICE car's tank. > Average gas station stop looks to be ~8 minutes. Tesla superchargers can do up to 200 miles in 15 minutes. So 100 miles of range in the same timeframe. But if you make a long trip, just doing ~8 minute, 100 mile charge stops, you'll be stopping about every 100 miles to charge. On a 1000 mile trip that's 80 minutes at charging stations. With an ICE that ~8 minute gas station stop would have filled the tank, giving 500+ miles of range. On a 1000 mile trip that's 16 minutes at gas stations. A gas station pump can pump 10 or more gallons per minute. (They are limited to 10 by regulation in the US, but I've heard that Europe allows more than that). If a car got 25 miles/gallon, which even a big SUV can do on highways, recharging at a gas station gives you 15000 miles/hour. Something smaller that gets 40 miles/gallon highway recharges at 24000 miles/gallon. Even driving some giant truck or SUV in a city where you might only get 10 miles/gallon would recharge at 6000 miles/hour. No matter how you slice it then the time actually taken to put a given number of miles into the vehicle is at least an order of magnitude more for an EV with current charging technology unless you driving a huge ICE in city conditions or you are at a very badly maintained gas pump. (And even then gas will be several times faster). If the other things you do at a charging stop, such as paying, using the restroom, getting snacks, checking the tires, cleaning the windshield, stretching, etc., take long enough and can be done sufficiently parallel to the actual charging the impact of EV charging being an order of magnitude slower might be lessened or even eliminated. On a long trip where you are going most of your vehicle's range between stops that very will might be the case. If I've been driving 3 or 4 hours I certainly want to stretch and walk around a bit before resuming. But when I'm just out and about doing normal daily stuff and see that gas is getting low, I just pay at the pump with Apple Pay, fill it up, and leave. The total time at the station is rarely more than a minute more than the pumping time.
extropy 3y ago
There is a significant overap - fuel up, find the restroom, grab some snacks. EV chargers have the benefits of being cheap, take little space, and permitting is raesonably simple. Expecting them to be way more widespread than fuel stations ever can be.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  Is an L3 charger cheaper to install than a gas pump? (Side note, I actually wish EV charging stations tried to be less like gas stations)
  - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
    Gas stations looks like that for a reason. EV chargers will too.
tills13 3y ago
I think this is simply tapping into existing infrastructure. It's not all bad. When I stop to charge, usually I'll find the nearest washroom and use it (why not?). I might grab a snack or something, too. A gas station satisfies both these requirements and is already grid-connected (electricity, plumbing, waste). What I'd like to see more of is comforts -- I want a comfy place to sit and relax for a bit or a park trail to walk around. I hate when I pull into a charger and it's just a parking lot. Not stimulating at all. Nothing to do but sit there. If I'm not using the gas station amenities it's not much better than an empty parking lot. I feel like gas stations have this "grind" / roadtrip mentality whereas I kind of want a relaxing, decompression space to charge my car. So maybe you're right...
- toast0 3y ago
  It feels like it would make more sense to encourage installation of charging infrastructure at places where you might want to be for half an hour anyway; parks with parking lots, restaurants, grocery stores, etc; rather than encouraging it at gas stations, except for in the rural highway case where gas stations might be all that's easy to find when you're driving between urban areas.
  - tills13 3y ago
    Definitely agree with you for urban: parks, malls, restaurants -- they'll already have ample parking and be grid-connected. For rural, yeah you gotta make do with what's already there. Gas-stations fit the bill.
  - gspencley 3y ago
    > except for in the rural highway case where gas stations might be all that's easy to find when you're driving between urban areas. Range is the one thing that is preventing me from looking at EVs at the moment. I own a car but I don't actually drive much in the city since I work from home and use grocery delivery services since I hate grocery shopping. When I tend to drive most it's because I'm going a long distance: 8 to 10 hour road trips up north etc. The idea of adding hours to such a trip, or turning it into an overnight trip, makes it a non-starter for me. I bring this up because the article specifically talks about about gas stations along the Autobahn. I've never been to Germany, let alone driven on the Autobahn, so maybe it is used quite frequently for shorter trips. But speaking of freeways in general, especially here in North America, I wonder if this is another reason that looking to gas stations along a freeway is a misguided "target." If people are using EVs on freeways, wouldn't they be more inclined to exit the freeway into a city and charge at a motel or a shopping centre while they stop overnight or at least a few hours?
godelski 3y ago
I'm sure the infrastructure will evolve over time but it currently seems like a good stop-gap. Makes dual use of current infrastructure in a transitionary period. EV adoption is still quite low. But I won't be surprised if when it increases we see the infrastructure change a lot. Like movie theaters offering deals for EV parking or far more charging stations at malls and big stores like wallmart and costco. But what to do on interstate seems like the interesting one. Do we see more casinos pop up? What entertainment or time expending industries will pop up to fill the time for people stopped in the middle of nowhere.
- highwaylights 3y ago
  Is this a real scenario? Most EVs can rapid charge with the right infrastructure in 30-45 minutes. It’s stop and get coffee/stretch legs timeframes, I’m not sure it’s that much of an event.
  - mannykannot 3y ago
    Indeed, but that is still an order of magnitude slower than adding the same range to a gasoline-powered car. If everyone who, today, refuels along an interstate / motorway / autobahn took 30-45 minutes to do so, I suspect that traffic in the more densely populated areas would grind to a halt.
    - Retric 3y ago
      Parked cars don’t impact traffic. The major difference is presumably the size of parking lots devoted to charging vs pumps, but ant home/work/etc charging offsets quite a bit. On longer trips the pay/pump/bathroom/grab a soda/hit the road cycle is probably 15 minutes. I expect many businesses focusing on capturing revenue from the captive audience of people waiting 20-30 minutes for their cars to charge. However, this goes away if we end up with in road charging.
      - godelski 3y ago
        Tell that to anyone who's been on a roadtrip and visited a busy rest stop. I've definitely seen long times on off-ramps as well as on-ramps for them. Given your "15 minute" time I'd take it you haven't really done a long road trip. As in multiple days of 8+hrs of driving. I did 4 days of 12hrs (split with someone) and that was rough.
wredue 3y ago
In cities, yes. On highway travel, also yes, but it can be influenced. This effort is better spent on a carbon tax that directly funds rebates for electric vehicles and charger installations.
hef19898 3y ago
Who should look at that? The tons of engineers and architects employeed by gas station operators? I have the hunch they will do that.
AYBABTME 3y ago
The best chargers are near nice coffeeshops, restaurants and groceries. They make it pleasant to stop at and take a break from the road trip.
dauertewigkeit 3y ago
You are quite right. A typical German gas station has nothing to offer somebody who is going to stay there for 30 minutes. Their little shop is usually overpriced and beyond that there is usually a place to pump your tires and to wash your car and little else. Chargers in the parking lots of supermarkets would make much more sense. And indeed that is already where the chargers are to be found. This is a case of the market outsmarting the stupid bureaucrats.

TulliusCicero 3y ago

The underlying difference being that charging takes substantially longer than gas-filling even with very fast chargers?

tills13 3y ago
Depends on the charging density. I drove across Canada and, when I knew the next charger was under 200km away I'd "fill up" for maybe 5 minutes and get on with my journey. Unlike an ICE, you want to keep your car between like 10% and 70% while road-tripping for charging efficiency. There are times I'd stop for 30+ minutes but typically I'd go find a place to eat or take a walk at those stops.
reducesuffering 3y ago
Idk about "substantially longer." Average gas station stop looks to be ~8 minutes. Tesla superchargers can do up to 200 miles in 15 minutes. So 100 miles of range in the same timeframe. And the charging technology is still in the middle of constant improvement.
- tzs 3y ago
  In the following, "charging" means charging EV batteries or putting gas in an ICE car's tank. > Average gas station stop looks to be ~8 minutes. Tesla superchargers can do up to 200 miles in 15 minutes. So 100 miles of range in the same timeframe. But if you make a long trip, just doing ~8 minute, 100 mile charge stops, you'll be stopping about every 100 miles to charge. On a 1000 mile trip that's 80 minutes at charging stations. With an ICE that ~8 minute gas station stop would have filled the tank, giving 500+ miles of range. On a 1000 mile trip that's 16 minutes at gas stations. A gas station pump can pump 10 or more gallons per minute. (They are limited to 10 by regulation in the US, but I've heard that Europe allows more than that). If a car got 25 miles/gallon, which even a big SUV can do on highways, recharging at a gas station gives you 15000 miles/hour. Something smaller that gets 40 miles/gallon highway recharges at 24000 miles/gallon. Even driving some giant truck or SUV in a city where you might only get 10 miles/gallon would recharge at 6000 miles/hour. No matter how you slice it then the time actually taken to put a given number of miles into the vehicle is at least an order of magnitude more for an EV with current charging technology unless you driving a huge ICE in city conditions or you are at a very badly maintained gas pump. (And even then gas will be several times faster). If the other things you do at a charging stop, such as paying, using the restroom, getting snacks, checking the tires, cleaning the windshield, stretching, etc., take long enough and can be done sufficiently parallel to the actual charging the impact of EV charging being an order of magnitude slower might be lessened or even eliminated. On a long trip where you are going most of your vehicle's range between stops that very will might be the case. If I've been driving 3 or 4 hours I certainly want to stretch and walk around a bit before resuming. But when I'm just out and about doing normal daily stuff and see that gas is getting low, I just pay at the pump with Apple Pay, fill it up, and leave. The total time at the station is rarely more than a minute more than the pumping time.

extropy 3y ago

There is a significant overap - fuel up, find the restroom, grab some snacks. EV chargers have the benefits of being cheap, take little space, and permitting is raesonably simple. Expecting them to be way more widespread than fuel stations ever can be.

Rebelgecko 3y ago
Is an L3 charger cheaper to install than a gas pump? (Side note, I actually wish EV charging stations tried to be less like gas stations)
- TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
  Gas stations looks like that for a reason. EV chargers will too.

tills13 3y ago

I think this is simply tapping into existing infrastructure. It's not all bad. When I stop to charge, usually I'll find the nearest washroom and use it (why not?). I might grab a snack or something, too. A gas station satisfies both these requirements and is already grid-connected (electricity, plumbing, waste). What I'd like to see more of is comforts -- I want a comfy place to sit and relax for a bit or a park trail to walk around. I hate when I pull into a charger and it's just a parking lot. Not stimulating at all. Nothing to do but sit there. If I'm not using the gas station amenities it's not much better than an empty parking lot. I feel like gas stations have this "grind" / roadtrip mentality whereas I kind of want a relaxing, decompression space to charge my car. So maybe you're right...

toast0 3y ago
It feels like it would make more sense to encourage installation of charging infrastructure at places where you might want to be for half an hour anyway; parks with parking lots, restaurants, grocery stores, etc; rather than encouraging it at gas stations, except for in the rural highway case where gas stations might be all that's easy to find when you're driving between urban areas.
- tills13 3y ago
  Definitely agree with you for urban: parks, malls, restaurants -- they'll already have ample parking and be grid-connected. For rural, yeah you gotta make do with what's already there. Gas-stations fit the bill.
- gspencley 3y ago
  > except for in the rural highway case where gas stations might be all that's easy to find when you're driving between urban areas. Range is the one thing that is preventing me from looking at EVs at the moment. I own a car but I don't actually drive much in the city since I work from home and use grocery delivery services since I hate grocery shopping. When I tend to drive most it's because I'm going a long distance: 8 to 10 hour road trips up north etc. The idea of adding hours to such a trip, or turning it into an overnight trip, makes it a non-starter for me. I bring this up because the article specifically talks about about gas stations along the Autobahn. I've never been to Germany, let alone driven on the Autobahn, so maybe it is used quite frequently for shorter trips. But speaking of freeways in general, especially here in North America, I wonder if this is another reason that looking to gas stations along a freeway is a misguided "target." If people are using EVs on freeways, wouldn't they be more inclined to exit the freeway into a city and charge at a motel or a shopping centre while they stop overnight or at least a few hours?

godelski 3y ago

I'm sure the infrastructure will evolve over time but it currently seems like a good stop-gap. Makes dual use of current infrastructure in a transitionary period. EV adoption is still quite low. But I won't be surprised if when it increases we see the infrastructure change a lot. Like movie theaters offering deals for EV parking or far more charging stations at malls and big stores like wallmart and costco. But what to do on interstate seems like the interesting one. Do we see more casinos pop up? What entertainment or time expending industries will pop up to fill the time for people stopped in the middle of nowhere.

highwaylights 3y ago
Is this a real scenario? Most EVs can rapid charge with the right infrastructure in 30-45 minutes. It’s stop and get coffee/stretch legs timeframes, I’m not sure it’s that much of an event.
- mannykannot 3y ago
  Indeed, but that is still an order of magnitude slower than adding the same range to a gasoline-powered car. If everyone who, today, refuels along an interstate / motorway / autobahn took 30-45 minutes to do so, I suspect that traffic in the more densely populated areas would grind to a halt.
  - Retric 3y ago
    Parked cars don’t impact traffic. The major difference is presumably the size of parking lots devoted to charging vs pumps, but ant home/work/etc charging offsets quite a bit. On longer trips the pay/pump/bathroom/grab a soda/hit the road cycle is probably 15 minutes. I expect many businesses focusing on capturing revenue from the captive audience of people waiting 20-30 minutes for their cars to charge. However, this goes away if we end up with in road charging.
    - godelski 3y ago
      Tell that to anyone who's been on a roadtrip and visited a busy rest stop. I've definitely seen long times on off-ramps as well as on-ramps for them. Given your "15 minute" time I'd take it you haven't really done a long road trip. As in multiple days of 8+hrs of driving. I did 4 days of 12hrs (split with someone) and that was rough.

wredue 3y ago

In cities, yes. On highway travel, also yes, but it can be influenced. This effort is better spent on a carbon tax that directly funds rebates for electric vehicles and charger installations.

hef19898 3y ago

Who should look at that? The tons of engineers and architects employeed by gas station operators? I have the hunch they will do that.

AYBABTME 3y ago

The best chargers are near nice coffeeshops, restaurants and groceries. They make it pleasant to stop at and take a break from the road trip.

dauertewigkeit 3y ago

You are quite right. A typical German gas station has nothing to offer somebody who is going to stay there for 30 minutes. Their little shop is usually overpriced and beyond that there is usually a place to pump your tires and to wash your car and little else. Chargers in the parking lots of supermarkets would make much more sense. And indeed that is already where the chargers are to be found. This is a case of the market outsmarting the stupid bureaucrats.