10 ms·

I gave my old parents the latest hand-me-up laptop and installed ubutntu on it because of windows 11. The install process and default configuration is so user h

by piyh 3y ago

I gave my old parents the latest hand-me-up laptop and installed ubutntu on it because of windows 11. The install process and default configuration is so user hostile to someone that "just needs to use chrome". My niece & nephew have only known ChromeOS/iOS/Android. They will never use windows until a college course requires some specific software, or they get a desk job. I think they will for sure eventually "learn windows", but I don't think the generation behind them will. I get the feeling more and more that peak Windows is upon us.

RankingMember 3y ago
> I get the feeling more and more that peak Windows is upon us. If only. I remember people saying the same when Vista came out.
nyanpasu64 3y ago
Ubuntu is now bundling advertisements for their paid services in apt upgrade output and the GUI software sources manager, in packages which cannot be uninstalled because they're hard dependencies of the `ubuntu-desktop` metapackage. Plus they've replaced Firefox with a package which installs a Snap, which loads so slowly they added a "snap opened" notification.
- physicles 3y ago
  This is one of the reasons why I stopped using Ubuntu and switched to pop os. Is there something keeping you from switching to another Debian derivative?
  - k12sosse 3y ago
    Honest question, why not just Debian and use a derivative instead? I took a 20 year sabbatical on Linux in the home. But with windows 11, I decided to go back. Stopped on debian, and chose Debian when I came back. I am super impressed with how it has matured and it seems to be built in a way that really does a fair job on looking out for you as a user, and as an administrator.
    - p1necone 3y ago
      The main problem with Debian is outdated software. For servers the fixed release cycle is great, everything is properly tested and it should be rock solid without really needing to touch it. But for a regular desktop/workstation system I want more frequent software updates even if it comes at the cost of a little stability. (Of course there's Debian unstable, but I'd rather go with a distro where the rolling release is the main product, and they maybe do a little more testing before making changes)
      - senknvd 3y ago
        I find that Flatpaks[1] work really well for getting the latest version of GUI-only apps. For CLI tools and libraries I haven't found a great solution but I make do with an Arch Linux distrobox[2] container. [1]: https://flathub.org/setup/Debian https://flathub.org/setup/Debian [2]: https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/distrobox https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/distrobox
        andrewaylett 3y ago
        Flatpak is great, and Homebrew works nicely on Linux for other bits and pieces. Linux support made it upstream to https://brew.sh https://brew.sh, so you get all the same things you'd get on a Mac.
      - jwells89 3y ago
        This point is particularly pertinent if Debian isn't the only OS you're using. It can be problematic if the software on your Linux machine is more than slightly behind whatever is on your Win/Mac machines.
      - HKH2 3y ago
        Well there are backports for some packages that require updates due to API changes etc.
      - Jedd 3y ago
        > The main problem with Debian is outdated software. I'm a Debian user. I see this a lot. Often in contrast with Ubuntu. Yet Debian's cycle is roughly on par with Ubuntu's LTS - every ~2 years.[0] Perhaps they mean there are interim releases in Ubuntu? It's hard to say for sure, as the phrase 'outdated software' can mean different things (more than 6 months old, more than 2 years old, in need of a security patch for > 1 week, etc). > But for a regular desktop/workstation system I want more frequent software updates even if it comes at the cost of a little stability. This sounds like you want Debian Testing (currently Trixie). Much more frequent software updates, with an extremely small risk of less 'stability'. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_version_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_version_history
  - retrocryptid 3y ago
    Stock Debian has been pretty decent recently. I was surprised to find it either didn't require proprietary blobs or installed them when I wasn't paying attention. I've also been playing around with BSD and it's like hanging out with a friend from elementary school: they're a little wonky, but you remember some good times together. PopOS isn't my favorite, but it is pretty straight-forward. If it's working for you then it's a total win. (Which is my way of saying "though I like Stock Debian and BSD, there is absolutely nothing wrong with PopOS.")
  - ssscool 3y ago
    You haven't stopped, PopOS is a Ubuntu derivative, not a Debian derivative. The future looks interesting though with at least the bulk of gnome dependencies removed with Cosmics - will still be a Ubuntu third-party spin / derivative though.
- 29athrowaway 3y ago
  If they keep messing it up, you can try Arch Linux.
- ploxiln 3y ago
  FWIW there's really nothing wrong with uninstalling this kind of metapackage. I've been uninstalling the "ubuntu-desktop" metapackage as I trim my ubuntu systems, for over a decade. I use a combination of "debfoster -n" and aptitude for the trimming ... it is a bit annoying but it's just once per install. That said, for the past couple years I've just run Debian and Arch. But I'll probably use ubuntu again for a while when I get a new framework laptop later this month, the hardware is too new, some special/custom kernel package provided for the latest ubuntu will probably be the most convenient solution initially, and I find trimming back ubuntu isn't too bad. Yes, you have to remove the "desktop" meta-package. It's fine.
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    "It's fine." No, it is not fine, that I have to fight my OS. It is managable if one has some skills with computer like we do, but it is not fine in general. I would like to trust the operating system I use.
- ssscool 3y ago
  This non-sense is everywhere in Ubuntu, out the box, not limited to Snap, I get "<Application> is ready" when it is raised after launching - wtf is this? Opening a browser, or text editor, I don't know who is responsible, Ubuntu or Gnome or it's some nasty default?
- severino 3y ago
  Do you mean you should just stick with Windows because Ubuntu now prints a line in your console when you apt-get upgrade telling you that Ubuntu Pro exists?
  - nyanpasu64 3y ago
    You should pick Linux Mint or another Linux distribution (if you can make it work for your use cases), and avoid both Windows and Ubuntu when they're built to act against the user's best interests.
taftster 3y ago
> I get the feeling more and more that peak Windows is upon us. Probably. But I don't think Microsoft cares. Just look at where Windows is in their org hierarchy; it's definitely not top dog anymore and it's not a "strategy" like it once was. The days of Microsoft needing Windows to make money are behind us, that's for sure. Peak Windows is probably correct, but that fact is not going to usher in Microsoft's demise.
p1necone 3y ago
Ubuntu kinda sucks now too. "Sign up for an account" is part of the install flow just like Windows. Fedora is my default "easy" Linux install nowadays, the excessively corporate vibes I get from Ubuntu feel very wrong for a Linux distro.
- backendanon 3y ago
  First, there's nothing overbearing about the Ubuntu install. Second, Fedora uses rpm management, rpm repositories sooner or later corrupt themselves, happened to me and others I know on Red Hat, on Fedora and on SuSE. I'd use Debian but I've found Ubuntu's driver management to be far more stable and reliable, especially for WiFi.
  - doubled112 3y ago
    Debian started shipping firmware in the main ISO this release. It mostly just works except Nvidia now, and even that's just an apt install away. Does that make it any easier? You can download a live version and test instead of needing to find that firmware included release.
  - tkuraku 3y ago
    Exact opposite experience here. RHEL and friends have been much more stable reliable for me than Ubuntu.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  > "Sign up for an account" is part of the install flow just like Windows. There's nothing wrong with providing an easily skippable option to do that (ubuntu), a completely different thing to make it a mandatory part of the installation (windows).
userbinator 3y ago
I recommend to switch them to Firefox instead.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
alexfromapex 3y ago
I hope so, Microsoft is a terrible monopolistic company and the PC landscape would be better off without them.
richiebful1 3y ago
I'm a 'non-traditional' student (25) and my fellow students are normal undergraduate age (19). Half are having a hard time with learning some of the CAD software because they lack the experience with full featured Desktop OS's like Windows/Linux/Mac. It's surprising how fast generational change occurs
- brian-armstrong 3y ago
  What, you mean CAD software didn't fully migrate to iPads? ;)
- Thlom 3y ago
  I've heard the same from university staff. The last few years many new students are having problems with the simplest stuff like uploading their course work into whatever educational platform the university is using because they have no grasp of the concept of a file.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - cmcaleer 3y ago
    Directory structures is the ‘skill’ I’ve been hearing a lot of complaints about students not understanding. Particularly annoying for those teaching first year undergrad SWEng, since the gap between those self starters who have some idea of what’s going on and those who don’t really care and we’re pressured into it by parents is larger than ever. It’s pretty unfair on those who have done the bare minimum amount of experience with computers that they have to sit through (and pay for!) being taught ‘this is what a file structure is and how it works’ for a not-trivial amount of time.
    - erremerre 3y ago
      Directory structures is a skill that most people with low computing knowledge always failed. I went to a GIS course, and people had troubles following because they saved their work (like click on save button, write a name and click accept) but then they were oblivious in whatever folder had been saved (they were computers from the lab/course) and couldn't find them. Also not understanding what a zip file is, (just a weird folder that sometimes fails). I am not surprised it is being the very same case with new generations. But before people were saving things in their desktop, now they just use the most recent function.
fh973 3y ago
Windows is effectively also the reason for the modular PC platform to exist. If peak Windows also means peak modular hardware, it's a dim future with closed Apple and Android-style hardware. Nothing's composable, OS is bound to the specific piece of hardware.
- Zetobal 3y ago
  Intel just announced that they will be putting ram on the package with their next gen CPUs...
  - tech2 3y ago
    One would hope they might instead consider the use of CAMM - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_Attached_Memory_Module https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_Attached_Memory_Mo... - but I guess we'll see :(
demandingturtle 3y ago
[dead]

by piyh 3y ago

RankingMember 3y ago

> I get the feeling more and more that peak Windows is upon us. If only. I remember people saying the same when Vista came out.

nyanpasu64 3y ago

Ubuntu is now bundling advertisements for their paid services in apt upgrade output and the GUI software sources manager, in packages which cannot be uninstalled because they're hard dependencies of the `ubuntu-desktop` metapackage. Plus they've replaced Firefox with a package which installs a Snap, which loads so slowly they added a "snap opened" notification.

physicles 3y ago
This is one of the reasons why I stopped using Ubuntu and switched to pop os. Is there something keeping you from switching to another Debian derivative?
- k12sosse 3y ago
  Honest question, why not just Debian and use a derivative instead? I took a 20 year sabbatical on Linux in the home. But with windows 11, I decided to go back. Stopped on debian, and chose Debian when I came back. I am super impressed with how it has matured and it seems to be built in a way that really does a fair job on looking out for you as a user, and as an administrator.
  - p1necone 3y ago
    The main problem with Debian is outdated software. For servers the fixed release cycle is great, everything is properly tested and it should be rock solid without really needing to touch it. But for a regular desktop/workstation system I want more frequent software updates even if it comes at the cost of a little stability. (Of course there's Debian unstable, but I'd rather go with a distro where the rolling release is the main product, and they maybe do a little more testing before making changes)
    - senknvd 3y ago
      I find that Flatpaks[1] work really well for getting the latest version of GUI-only apps. For CLI tools and libraries I haven't found a great solution but I make do with an Arch Linux distrobox[2] container. [1]: https://flathub.org/setup/Debian https://flathub.org/setup/Debian [2]: https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/distrobox https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/distrobox
      - andrewaylett 3y ago
        Flatpak is great, and Homebrew works nicely on Linux for other bits and pieces. Linux support made it upstream to https://brew.sh https://brew.sh, so you get all the same things you'd get on a Mac.
    - jwells89 3y ago
      This point is particularly pertinent if Debian isn't the only OS you're using. It can be problematic if the software on your Linux machine is more than slightly behind whatever is on your Win/Mac machines.
    - HKH2 3y ago
      Well there are backports for some packages that require updates due to API changes etc.
    - Jedd 3y ago
      > The main problem with Debian is outdated software. I'm a Debian user. I see this a lot. Often in contrast with Ubuntu. Yet Debian's cycle is roughly on par with Ubuntu's LTS - every ~2 years.[0] Perhaps they mean there are interim releases in Ubuntu? It's hard to say for sure, as the phrase 'outdated software' can mean different things (more than 6 months old, more than 2 years old, in need of a security patch for > 1 week, etc). > But for a regular desktop/workstation system I want more frequent software updates even if it comes at the cost of a little stability. This sounds like you want Debian Testing (currently Trixie). Much more frequent software updates, with an extremely small risk of less 'stability'. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_version_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_version_history
- retrocryptid 3y ago
  Stock Debian has been pretty decent recently. I was surprised to find it either didn't require proprietary blobs or installed them when I wasn't paying attention. I've also been playing around with BSD and it's like hanging out with a friend from elementary school: they're a little wonky, but you remember some good times together. PopOS isn't my favorite, but it is pretty straight-forward. If it's working for you then it's a total win. (Which is my way of saying "though I like Stock Debian and BSD, there is absolutely nothing wrong with PopOS.")
- ssscool 3y ago
  You haven't stopped, PopOS is a Ubuntu derivative, not a Debian derivative. The future looks interesting though with at least the bulk of gnome dependencies removed with Cosmics - will still be a Ubuntu third-party spin / derivative though.
29athrowaway 3y ago
If they keep messing it up, you can try Arch Linux.
ploxiln 3y ago
FWIW there's really nothing wrong with uninstalling this kind of metapackage. I've been uninstalling the "ubuntu-desktop" metapackage as I trim my ubuntu systems, for over a decade. I use a combination of "debfoster -n" and aptitude for the trimming ... it is a bit annoying but it's just once per install. That said, for the past couple years I've just run Debian and Arch. But I'll probably use ubuntu again for a while when I get a new framework laptop later this month, the hardware is too new, some special/custom kernel package provided for the latest ubuntu will probably be the most convenient solution initially, and I find trimming back ubuntu isn't too bad. Yes, you have to remove the "desktop" meta-package. It's fine.
- hutzlibu 3y ago
  "It's fine." No, it is not fine, that I have to fight my OS. It is managable if one has some skills with computer like we do, but it is not fine in general. I would like to trust the operating system I use.
ssscool 3y ago
This non-sense is everywhere in Ubuntu, out the box, not limited to Snap, I get "<Application> is ready" when it is raised after launching - wtf is this? Opening a browser, or text editor, I don't know who is responsible, Ubuntu or Gnome or it's some nasty default?
severino 3y ago
Do you mean you should just stick with Windows because Ubuntu now prints a line in your console when you apt-get upgrade telling you that Ubuntu Pro exists?
- nyanpasu64 3y ago
  You should pick Linux Mint or another Linux distribution (if you can make it work for your use cases), and avoid both Windows and Ubuntu when they're built to act against the user's best interests.

taftster 3y ago

> I get the feeling more and more that peak Windows is upon us. Probably. But I don't think Microsoft cares. Just look at where Windows is in their org hierarchy; it's definitely not top dog anymore and it's not a "strategy" like it once was. The days of Microsoft needing Windows to make money are behind us, that's for sure. Peak Windows is probably correct, but that fact is not going to usher in Microsoft's demise.

p1necone 3y ago

Ubuntu kinda sucks now too. "Sign up for an account" is part of the install flow just like Windows. Fedora is my default "easy" Linux install nowadays, the excessively corporate vibes I get from Ubuntu feel very wrong for a Linux distro.

backendanon 3y ago
First, there's nothing overbearing about the Ubuntu install. Second, Fedora uses rpm management, rpm repositories sooner or later corrupt themselves, happened to me and others I know on Red Hat, on Fedora and on SuSE. I'd use Debian but I've found Ubuntu's driver management to be far more stable and reliable, especially for WiFi.
- doubled112 3y ago
  Debian started shipping firmware in the main ISO this release. It mostly just works except Nvidia now, and even that's just an apt install away. Does that make it any easier? You can download a live version and test instead of needing to find that firmware included release.
- tkuraku 3y ago
  Exact opposite experience here. RHEL and friends have been much more stable reliable for me than Ubuntu.
The_Colonel 3y ago
> "Sign up for an account" is part of the install flow just like Windows. There's nothing wrong with providing an easily skippable option to do that (ubuntu), a completely different thing to make it a mandatory part of the installation (windows).

userbinator 3y ago

I recommend to switch them to Firefox instead.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

alexfromapex 3y ago

I hope so, Microsoft is a terrible monopolistic company and the PC landscape would be better off without them.

richiebful1 3y ago

I'm a 'non-traditional' student (25) and my fellow students are normal undergraduate age (19). Half are having a hard time with learning some of the CAD software because they lack the experience with full featured Desktop OS's like Windows/Linux/Mac. It's surprising how fast generational change occurs

brian-armstrong 3y ago
What, you mean CAD software didn't fully migrate to iPads? ;)
Thlom 3y ago
I've heard the same from university staff. The last few years many new students are having problems with the simplest stuff like uploading their course work into whatever educational platform the university is using because they have no grasp of the concept of a file.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cmcaleer 3y ago
  Directory structures is the ‘skill’ I’ve been hearing a lot of complaints about students not understanding. Particularly annoying for those teaching first year undergrad SWEng, since the gap between those self starters who have some idea of what’s going on and those who don’t really care and we’re pressured into it by parents is larger than ever. It’s pretty unfair on those who have done the bare minimum amount of experience with computers that they have to sit through (and pay for!) being taught ‘this is what a file structure is and how it works’ for a not-trivial amount of time.
  - erremerre 3y ago
    Directory structures is a skill that most people with low computing knowledge always failed. I went to a GIS course, and people had troubles following because they saved their work (like click on save button, write a name and click accept) but then they were oblivious in whatever folder had been saved (they were computers from the lab/course) and couldn't find them. Also not understanding what a zip file is, (just a weird folder that sometimes fails). I am not surprised it is being the very same case with new generations. But before people were saving things in their desktop, now they just use the most recent function.

fh973 3y ago

Windows is effectively also the reason for the modular PC platform to exist. If peak Windows also means peak modular hardware, it's a dim future with closed Apple and Android-style hardware. Nothing's composable, OS is bound to the specific piece of hardware.

Zetobal 3y ago
Intel just announced that they will be putting ram on the package with their next gen CPUs...
- tech2 3y ago
  One would hope they might instead consider the use of CAMM - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_Attached_Memory_Module https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_Attached_Memory_Mo... - but I guess we'll see :(

demandingturtle 3y ago

[dead]