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> Air conditioners [...] leak harmful planet-warming gases into the atmosphere. Anyone has a reference about that? Last time I tried to research it, it seems l

by tonfa 3y ago

> Air conditioners [...] leak harmful planet-warming gases into the atmosphere. Anyone has a reference about that? Last time I tried to research it, it seems like it was mostly fixed at least in Europe with the most harmful gases being banned for new sales.

moritz 3y ago
The phase-out under the Montreal protocol is an ongoing process, but we are far from there. The HFCs that replaced (H)CFCs in the 90s quickly turned out to be fastes growing category of short-term climate pollutants in many countries in the world [1]. The Kigali Amendment to the Montreal protocol from 2019 now covers HFCs too, and the EU limits them since 2015, but these things take time… R-410A, commonly used in Europe, has a GWP of 2088. Worldwide, R-22 still is the most common refrigerant. That’s a HCFC, so stratospheric ozone depleting, and with a GWP of 1960. [1]: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1216414 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1216414
- stephen_g 3y ago
  R-410A is being phased out in major markets including the US too over the next few years (R-22 has been banned for new equipment most places for more than a decade, and is banned entirely in the EU since 2015 for recharging existing units). My Mitsubishi air to air heat pumps (one from 2015 and one from 2018) were already R-32 (GWP 675, Ozone depletion potential 0) and my air to water (Sanden, installed 2022) is R-744 (which is CO2 - obviously GWP 1)
  - tonfa 3y ago
    Thanks both for the pointers (it's easier to google if you know what to search for). https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/fluorinated-greenhouse-gases/climate-friendly-alternatives-hfcs_en https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/fluorinated-greenhous... is the list of alternatives with corresponding GWP for EU.
  - moritz 3y ago
    In so-called developing countries, the full ban of R-22 will be 2030, which is a full ban with an asterisk to 2040. Not saying the phase-out isn’t happening, but there are, and there will be for quite some time, millions of units leaking climate pollutants (which was the question).
housemusicfan 3y ago
Sounds like FUD. A properly installed AC leaks nothing because it is by design a sealed system. I wonder if they feel the same about refrigerators. These same smooth-brains are probably extolling the benefits of heat pump water heaters not realizing they have the equivalent of an AC attached to them.
- aa_is_op 3y ago
  They do leak. That's why you have to replenish their gas reserves every 2-3-4 years (based on brand). Had to do mine two years ago.
  - housemusicfan 3y ago
    This is false. They're not supposed to leak. "Replenish gas reserves" is not a regularly scheduled maintenance item. In fact it's illegal for a technician to add refrigerant more than once without identifying and repairing the source of the leak. Unless you did something stupid like tried to install a split system yourself. If your unit leaks refrigerant it needs to be repaired. This is not normal.
    - Finnucane 3y ago
      “Not supposed to” is a very weak condition in manufacturing these days.
      - housemusicfan 3y ago
        ICE cars aren't supposed to explode nor are EVs supposed to burst into flames via inextinguishable battery fires. But sometimes they do. We don't use this outlier data to refer to them as conflagrations-on-wheels and assert it's a normal function of the device just to strengthen our biased case.
        Finnucane 3y ago
        Sure but battery fires are still a problem that needs to be fixed and not ignored. Also, even though it doesn’t happen often, when it does the results can be catastrophic. So it is a reasonable concern.
nraynaud 3y ago
I installed a brand new unit last month, I’m now the proud owner of 900kg equivalent CO2 on my roof. It’s 20 times less than before, but not nothing.

by tonfa 3y ago

moritz 3y ago

The phase-out under the Montreal protocol is an ongoing process, but we are far from there. The HFCs that replaced (H)CFCs in the 90s quickly turned out to be fastes growing category of short-term climate pollutants in many countries in the world [1]. The Kigali Amendment to the Montreal protocol from 2019 now covers HFCs too, and the EU limits them since 2015, but these things take time… R-410A, commonly used in Europe, has a GWP of 2088. Worldwide, R-22 still is the most common refrigerant. That’s a HCFC, so stratospheric ozone depleting, and with a GWP of 1960. [1]: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1216414 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1216414

stephen_g 3y ago
R-410A is being phased out in major markets including the US too over the next few years (R-22 has been banned for new equipment most places for more than a decade, and is banned entirely in the EU since 2015 for recharging existing units). My Mitsubishi air to air heat pumps (one from 2015 and one from 2018) were already R-32 (GWP 675, Ozone depletion potential 0) and my air to water (Sanden, installed 2022) is R-744 (which is CO2 - obviously GWP 1)
- tonfa 3y ago
  Thanks both for the pointers (it's easier to google if you know what to search for). https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/fluorinated-greenhouse-gases/climate-friendly-alternatives-hfcs_en https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/fluorinated-greenhous... is the list of alternatives with corresponding GWP for EU.
- moritz 3y ago
  In so-called developing countries, the full ban of R-22 will be 2030, which is a full ban with an asterisk to 2040. Not saying the phase-out isn’t happening, but there are, and there will be for quite some time, millions of units leaking climate pollutants (which was the question).

housemusicfan 3y ago

Sounds like FUD. A properly installed AC leaks nothing because it is by design a sealed system. I wonder if they feel the same about refrigerators. These same smooth-brains are probably extolling the benefits of heat pump water heaters not realizing they have the equivalent of an AC attached to them.

aa_is_op 3y ago
They do leak. That's why you have to replenish their gas reserves every 2-3-4 years (based on brand). Had to do mine two years ago.
- housemusicfan 3y ago
  This is false. They're not supposed to leak. "Replenish gas reserves" is not a regularly scheduled maintenance item. In fact it's illegal for a technician to add refrigerant more than once without identifying and repairing the source of the leak. Unless you did something stupid like tried to install a split system yourself. If your unit leaks refrigerant it needs to be repaired. This is not normal.
  - Finnucane 3y ago
    “Not supposed to” is a very weak condition in manufacturing these days.
    - housemusicfan 3y ago
      ICE cars aren't supposed to explode nor are EVs supposed to burst into flames via inextinguishable battery fires. But sometimes they do. We don't use this outlier data to refer to them as conflagrations-on-wheels and assert it's a normal function of the device just to strengthen our biased case.
      - Finnucane 3y ago
        Sure but battery fires are still a problem that needs to be fixed and not ignored. Also, even though it doesn’t happen often, when it does the results can be catastrophic. So it is a reasonable concern.

nraynaud 3y ago

I installed a brand new unit last month, I’m now the proud owner of 900kg equivalent CO2 on my roof. It’s 20 times less than before, but not nothing.