7 ms·

There was a version of streptococcus mutans developed that didn’t produce tons of lactic acid and would have pretty much ended tooth decay back in 2000. Iirc, i

by dlg 3y ago

There was a version of streptococcus mutans developed that didn’t produce tons of lactic acid and would have pretty much ended tooth decay back in 2000. Iirc, it was built to outcompete the regular bacteria too. As far as I can tell there’s been no progress in commercializing this-—I assume because of the cost and complexity of FDA approval. E.g., https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12369203/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12369203/

TheHumanist 3y ago
I wonder if there is anything more to the reason that it has never gained any real traction? A lot of groups would stand to lose a lot of money if something like this become used by even half the population. This would mean a massive reduction in purchases of many dental products, visits to dentists, procedures needed by dentists, etc.
- isoprophlex 3y ago
  How'd you call this lactic acid promoting cartel? Big Toothpaste? Big Plaque? Big Teeth?
  - maximinus_thrax 3y ago
    You're trying to make a joke here, but please do some reasearch about the dental lobbying groups. The ADA is no joke. What OP is implying is not really tinfoil hat material. As one example, one of the reasons parroted (by democrats, actually) that we won't have universal healthcare ever, is that it's going to cause thousands of health insurance jobs to dissapear.
    - beebmam 3y ago
      Then why doesn't a country with a nationalized health care system do it? There are incentives in other countries that would encourage this, if it were possible.
      - zaat 3y ago
        I'm not saying there isn't such a country, but the countries with national health care that I know about don't or don't fully cover dental health (presumably because one can live in perfect health with a rotting mouth and not due to a strong dental healthcare lobby /s).
        peteradio 3y ago
        How oh how did our ancestors survive without the dental lobby!? How did the children with their rotten ass teeth consume all their goodies and sodie pops with such poorly functioning teeth!? Its a complete mystery, one I'm sure is lost to the sands of the 1950s.
        zaat 3y ago
        They died at young age, miserably?
        klipt 3y ago
        Most of our ancestors just ate much less refined sugar, so probably had less need for dental care in the first place.
        zaat 3y ago
        > ...there was never yet philosopher that could endure the toothache patiently (shakespeare) Why defer to a baseless "probably" when you can easily check what is known about the past? Wikipedia doesn't put the blame on refined sugar but rather point to farming as to what correlated with dental issues. Are you familiar with the barber's pole? that's the sign for the location where our ancestors went to be relived from owning teeth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber%27s_pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber%27s_pole
      - maximinus_thrax 3y ago
        My nationalized healthcare comment is unlreated to the existence of the dental industry in its current form. It was just an example to point out that protecting jobs is something our elected leaders are worried about when lobbyists are paying up (they're not really that worried about jobs dissapearing due to automation or mergers or monolopies, etc..) Regardless of the type of healthcare (nationalized, private, etc..) the dental health industry is still getting paid, the only diffference is who is doing it. The original statement was that a breakthrough in preventive medicine will destroy a large portion of the bread and butter of the dental health industry, which will lead to it being only a fraction of what it is today. Industries fight tooth and nail to keep growing. Guess what they do when their existence is threatened.
    - TheHumanist 3y ago
      I appreciate your response. I almost didn't even make the original comment because I knew I would get 'conspiracy nut' responses, as I did lol I promise, I'm the furthest from a conspiracy nut.
- Finnucane 3y ago
  What's more likely, vast cabal conspiring against competing product, or competing product just doesn't work as well as claimed? There aren't nearly as many grand conspiracies out there as there should be.
- bsder 3y ago
  You think that the governments of the world with much poorer people wouldn't jump on something like this? Improving dental health dramatically improves outcomes all across the board. If something works, someone, somewhere in the world would start using it. Hell, people are willing to use stuff that is flat out harmful simply because some people on the internet said so. The big issue with bio things is that the human organism has a lot of variation and a lot of cures sorta work for some people some of the time. Consequently, a high enough bar to get FDA clearance has to be significantly strong. (Two good recent examples: A woman died from oxalate overload from drinking green smoothies and Vitamin C and anti-oxidants can spur cancer growth. Does that mean that everybody should stop drinking green smoothies and taking Vitamin C? Obviously no. But it shows that humans vary and that things aren't always straightforward.)
amelius 3y ago
> it was built to outcompete the regular bacteria too What if it invades the gut?
- piuantiderp 3y ago
  Very different conditions
tyre 3y ago
Looks like that research led the lead author to found a company[0] and develop a probiotic tablet[1]. Seems like it could be worth trying. [0]: https://www.dentistryiq.com/dentistry/oral-systemic-health/article/16364134/oralsystemic-link-and-the-potential-impact-of-probiotics https://www.dentistryiq.com/dentistry/oral-systemic-health/a... [1]: https://probiorahealth.com/ https://probiorahealth.com/
- Obscurity4340 3y ago
  No way?! Great find, dude. I wonder if anyone can comment about it specifically or if it might be worthwhile to start a thread soliciting users experience...
  - lisper 3y ago
    I've never tried it but I see cause for skepticism: the claim is that these beneficial bacteria will out-compete the harmful ones. But if that's true, why would it take 30 days for them to get established? One shot of Listerine to kill what's there now, then one batch of the good critters to get them started, and, if the claims are true, you should be set for life, right? So something doesn't add up.
    - Obscurity4340 3y ago
      Doesn't your body have a reservoir of your microbiome throughout your body (like in the appendix or whatever)? Is it that far-out that some of the mouth stuff makes it there as well? Keep in mind, these bacteria have probably adapted and co-evolved over our development as a species, they must be fairly hardy and well-positioned Not qualified to argue with your very logical position here but I feel like it might be a longer-term transition and there might still be hold-outs if its only a one-and-done deal like you've described. Mea culpa tho, I definitely want to believe
      - lisper 3y ago
        > I definitely want to believe Me too. Nothing would make me happier than for someone to show me why I'm wrong here.
0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
My naïve thought, assuming it was effective, could outcompete acid spewing species, and you had dosed a handful of the population: why would it not have been able to spread through the population? Inoculated person X kisses two people, they go on to kiss two people, etc. Probably too simple a model, but I assume that kissing spreads all manner of microorganisms. How much do you need for the bacteria to take hold?

by dlg 3y ago

TheHumanist 3y ago

I wonder if there is anything more to the reason that it has never gained any real traction? A lot of groups would stand to lose a lot of money if something like this become used by even half the population. This would mean a massive reduction in purchases of many dental products, visits to dentists, procedures needed by dentists, etc.

isoprophlex 3y ago
How'd you call this lactic acid promoting cartel? Big Toothpaste? Big Plaque? Big Teeth?
- maximinus_thrax 3y ago
  You're trying to make a joke here, but please do some reasearch about the dental lobbying groups. The ADA is no joke. What OP is implying is not really tinfoil hat material. As one example, one of the reasons parroted (by democrats, actually) that we won't have universal healthcare ever, is that it's going to cause thousands of health insurance jobs to dissapear.
  - beebmam 3y ago
    Then why doesn't a country with a nationalized health care system do it? There are incentives in other countries that would encourage this, if it were possible.
    - zaat 3y ago
      I'm not saying there isn't such a country, but the countries with national health care that I know about don't or don't fully cover dental health (presumably because one can live in perfect health with a rotting mouth and not due to a strong dental healthcare lobby /s).
      - peteradio 3y ago
        How oh how did our ancestors survive without the dental lobby!? How did the children with their rotten ass teeth consume all their goodies and sodie pops with such poorly functioning teeth!? Its a complete mystery, one I'm sure is lost to the sands of the 1950s.
        zaat 3y ago
        They died at young age, miserably?
        klipt 3y ago
        Most of our ancestors just ate much less refined sugar, so probably had less need for dental care in the first place.
        zaat 3y ago
        > ...there was never yet philosopher that could endure the toothache patiently (shakespeare) Why defer to a baseless "probably" when you can easily check what is known about the past? Wikipedia doesn't put the blame on refined sugar but rather point to farming as to what correlated with dental issues. Are you familiar with the barber's pole? that's the sign for the location where our ancestors went to be relived from owning teeth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber%27s_pole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber%27s_pole
    - maximinus_thrax 3y ago
      My nationalized healthcare comment is unlreated to the existence of the dental industry in its current form. It was just an example to point out that protecting jobs is something our elected leaders are worried about when lobbyists are paying up (they're not really that worried about jobs dissapearing due to automation or mergers or monolopies, etc..) Regardless of the type of healthcare (nationalized, private, etc..) the dental health industry is still getting paid, the only diffference is who is doing it. The original statement was that a breakthrough in preventive medicine will destroy a large portion of the bread and butter of the dental health industry, which will lead to it being only a fraction of what it is today. Industries fight tooth and nail to keep growing. Guess what they do when their existence is threatened.
  - TheHumanist 3y ago
    I appreciate your response. I almost didn't even make the original comment because I knew I would get 'conspiracy nut' responses, as I did lol I promise, I'm the furthest from a conspiracy nut.
Finnucane 3y ago
What's more likely, vast cabal conspiring against competing product, or competing product just doesn't work as well as claimed? There aren't nearly as many grand conspiracies out there as there should be.
bsder 3y ago
You think that the governments of the world with much poorer people wouldn't jump on something like this? Improving dental health dramatically improves outcomes all across the board. If something works, someone, somewhere in the world would start using it. Hell, people are willing to use stuff that is flat out harmful simply because some people on the internet said so. The big issue with bio things is that the human organism has a lot of variation and a lot of cures sorta work for some people some of the time. Consequently, a high enough bar to get FDA clearance has to be significantly strong. (Two good recent examples: A woman died from oxalate overload from drinking green smoothies and Vitamin C and anti-oxidants can spur cancer growth. Does that mean that everybody should stop drinking green smoothies and taking Vitamin C? Obviously no. But it shows that humans vary and that things aren't always straightforward.)

amelius 3y ago

> it was built to outcompete the regular bacteria too What if it invades the gut?

piuantiderp 3y ago
Very different conditions

tyre 3y ago

Looks like that research led the lead author to found a company[0] and develop a probiotic tablet[1]. Seems like it could be worth trying. [0]: https://www.dentistryiq.com/dentistry/oral-systemic-health/article/16364134/oralsystemic-link-and-the-potential-impact-of-probiotics https://www.dentistryiq.com/dentistry/oral-systemic-health/a... [1]: https://probiorahealth.com/ https://probiorahealth.com/

Obscurity4340 3y ago
No way?! Great find, dude. I wonder if anyone can comment about it specifically or if it might be worthwhile to start a thread soliciting users experience...
- lisper 3y ago
  I've never tried it but I see cause for skepticism: the claim is that these beneficial bacteria will out-compete the harmful ones. But if that's true, why would it take 30 days for them to get established? One shot of Listerine to kill what's there now, then one batch of the good critters to get them started, and, if the claims are true, you should be set for life, right? So something doesn't add up.
  - Obscurity4340 3y ago
    Doesn't your body have a reservoir of your microbiome throughout your body (like in the appendix or whatever)? Is it that far-out that some of the mouth stuff makes it there as well? Keep in mind, these bacteria have probably adapted and co-evolved over our development as a species, they must be fairly hardy and well-positioned Not qualified to argue with your very logical position here but I feel like it might be a longer-term transition and there might still be hold-outs if its only a one-and-done deal like you've described. Mea culpa tho, I definitely want to believe
    - lisper 3y ago
      > I definitely want to believe Me too. Nothing would make me happier than for someone to show me why I'm wrong here.

0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago

My naïve thought, assuming it was effective, could outcompete acid spewing species, and you had dosed a handful of the population: why would it not have been able to spread through the population? Inoculated person X kisses two people, they go on to kiss two people, etc. Probably too simple a model, but I assume that kissing spreads all manner of microorganisms. How much do you need for the bacteria to take hold?