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The molecule DIM reduces biofilms causing dental plaque: study
- TheAceOfHearts 3y agoI can't wait for daily teeth brushing to be a thing of the past. It amazes me we've had so many technological advances while still having such primitive mouth cleaning solutions. There's people that basically never have to brush their teeth, why can't their magical bacteria be used by everyone? I recently asked a dentist in training and they told me the bacteria would die after eating the plaque. Even if you have to regularly re-add the bacteria, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. You could make a lozenge which you suck on once a week, and it's still less effort than brushing daily.
- SanderNL 3y ago[flagged]
- TheHumanist 3y agoSeems like an unnecessarily condescending comment
- testbjjl 3y agoWeird that the parent comment somehow triggered this person. I’d be curious as to why, perhaps a dentist or a dental sympathizer?
- TheAceOfHearts 3y agoAre you trying to make a point that it's unrealistic? Because there's definitely people that don't have to brush their teeth daily to maintain great dental health. Calling it magical bacteria is a bit of a hyperbole, but I figured anyone reading my post in good faith would catch that.
- avery17 3y agoDo you have a source of this claim that people exist who dont "need" to brush their teeth?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- happytoexplain 3y agoI've never looked into the facts, but anecdotally I've known of two close friends who never (and I mean never - not an observation, but an admission) brushed their teeth and never had one solitary cavity. They ate pretty normal American diets (meat, sugar, carbs, soda, coffee, but nothing in excess). Additionally, I've heard this same second-hand anecdote from others multiple times in my life.
- happytoexplain 3y agoWhat a strange thing to have this feeling about.
- anonym29 3y agoTechnically, teeth brushing can become a thing of the past for you at any time, if you're not in love with your teeth.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y agoIf you are referring to implants, you still have to brush them daily
- agumonkey 3y agoI think he had soup and straws in mind
- pdimitar 3y agoDo you really have to do it daily with them? I have two zirconium-based implanted teeth and they're always smooth. Zero biological film or gunk on them, and I had some periods this year during which I didn't brush teeth for 4-5 days. All other teeth were nasty but the zirconium implants looked and felt pristine. (Sadly still prone to food bits getting stuck in-between though, but oral shower and interdental brushes take care of that.) Though I agree that even if you replace all your teeth you still have to brush somewhat because the gums need the cleanup as well and you can't replace those. Though I'd think I can get away with a much shorter procedure than what I do for several years now (powerful oral shower, interdental brushes, brushing teeth and gums, and Listerine).
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y agoIf I remember correctly, it's mostly inter-dental brushing/flushing to avoid gum related problems or food getting stuck (infections)
- pdimitar 3y agoThat's what I thought, thanks. Interdental brushing is the one and only unavoidable cleaning procedure even if all your teeth are artificial, it seems. Gums and inter-teeth space are still prone to pollution that can easily grow to infections and ultimately nasty stuff like periodontitis (I got operated to be cured of it several years ago).
- bigbillheck 3y agoNever brushing your teeth is a great way for nobody to ever want to smooch you.
- amelius 3y agoBut note that more brushing != more smooching.
- dghughes 3y agoOnly if you brush up against somone.
- bigbillheck 3y agoIt's necessary but not sufficient.
- lijok 3y agoSpeak for yourself - my wife is a dentist
- xorbax 3y agoIt depends on what range of the x-axis you select, and what units you use for y
- happytoexplain 3y agoI can attest that this is not a rule. Some people simply do not develop bad breath despite never brushing (I am not one of them). I assume it is a lucky minority.
- tsss 3y agoI would still brush my teeth after every meal if I can. Not only to prevent smells. I find it also reduces the frequency of snacking and thus helps to keep the weight down.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dlg 3y agoThere was a version of streptococcus mutans developed that didn’t produce tons of lactic acid and would have pretty much ended tooth decay back in 2000. Iirc, it was built to outcompete the regular bacteria too. As far as I can tell there’s been no progress in commercializing this-—I assume because of the cost and complexity of FDA approval. E.g., https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12369203/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12369203/
- TheHumanist 3y agoI wonder if there is anything more to the reason that it has never gained any real traction? A lot of groups would stand to lose a lot of money if something like this become used by even half the population. This would mean a massive reduction in purchases of many dental products, visits to dentists, procedures needed by dentists, etc.
- isoprophlex 3y agoHow'd you call this lactic acid promoting cartel? Big Toothpaste? Big Plaque? Big Teeth?
- maximinus_thrax 3y agoYou're trying to make a joke here, but please do some reasearch about the dental lobbying groups. The ADA is no joke. What OP is implying is not really tinfoil hat material. As one example, one of the reasons parroted (by democrats, actually) that we won't have universal healthcare ever, is that it's going to cause thousands of health insurance jobs to dissapear.
- beebmam 3y agoThen why doesn't a country with a nationalized health care system do it? There are incentives in other countries that would encourage this, if it were possible.
- 3y ago
- lifty 3y agoIs there a DIY version of this molecule?
- stereo 3y agoBroccoli contains loads of it. You can also buy a bag for $19: https://www.amazon.com/PURE-ORIGINAL-INGREDIENTS-Diindolylmethane-Supplement/dp/B0CCQDWNNW https://www.amazon.com/PURE-ORIGINAL-INGREDIENTS-Diindolylme...
- amelius 3y agoFrom: https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1049/diindolylmethane https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1049/diindo... > Diindolylmethane might act like estrogen in the body, but might also block estrogen effects. Right, so don't swallow it? > People commonly use diindolylmethane for breast cancer, prostate cancer, and many other conditions, but there is no good scientific evidence to support these uses. Or perhaps do swallow it?
- tourmalinetaco 3y agoAs is common in food sciences, “we have no idea what this actually does but SOME small studies have SOME big conclusions so here you go”.
- Projectiboga 3y agoThis molecule is safe to eat, it helps the body fight the stomach ulcer bacteria. This cuts the slime that these bacteria use but aren't indiscriminate at killing microbes. You're immune system still does the actual work this just prevents evasive measures resistant bugs use.
- LinuxBender 3y agoI take it in capsule form. It may be worth noting should anyone decide to take this to remember in advance how it will color the urine. The first time can be rather disturbing. It makes the urine kindof a splotchy red/bronze color if it has not been consumed in a while. I totally forgot about that the first time and though I was experiencing renal failure at first. I personally only take small amounts as it seems to up-regulate some repair pathways that can cause pain in some joints. No pain no gain but I'm just lazy enough to stick with broccoli sprouts for DIM and sulforaphane most of the time. I also don't measure serum estrogen and guess as with most things.
- xk_id 3y agothere is something odd about their results. the compound was found not to be effective at either 0.1x or 10x of the effective dose. and they don't really explain why. this kind of dose-response curve makes it impractical to use.
- kens 3y agoWow, you're right; the results are very strange. Concentrations of 50, 5, and .05 have no effect at all, while .5 almost completely eliminated biofilm. That kind of looks like experimental error. Figure 1 at https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/12/6/1017 https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/12/6/1017
- arcticfox 3y agoWowwwww. I desperately want this approach to hold up but who in their right mind puts that in a paper with only the caveat “interestingly, only one dose worked.” when they tested three others with literally zero effect and there’s no known mechanistic reason listed. I hope I’m missing something but that looks like a ridiculous blunder perhaps made to get forward to publishing.
- ta988 3y agoUnfortunately typical of compounds that have promiscuous activities. Lets wait for this to be replicated or applied before getting excited.
- tycho-newman 3y agoY'all will do anything to avoid some mouthwash.
- justinclift 3y agoWell, it's pricing is kind of extraordinary. Like soft drinks, it's pretty much water + additives. Yet it makes brand name soft drinks look extremely cheap. ;)
- retSava 3y agoYou could call my child, or me, water + additives, yet she is priceless :).
- doubled112 3y agoInteresting. My children seem to be incredibly expensive.
- justinclift 3y agoWhile that's technically true, I'm pretty sure you understand the point I was making. :)
- Obscurity4340 3y agoIs that really all it takes?
- klipt 3y agoNo, you need mechanical stimulation to break up biofilm, aka brushing. Most effective are those Oral B electric brushes that alternately rotate back and forth.
- impish9208 3y ago9 out of 10 dentists hate this molecule.
- m3kw9 3y agoWhatever dental society that is gets paid for giving dentists licences is not gonna approve this if it means it will lower cavities by a lot, a big portion of dentists fees is from patching up cavities and it’s sideffects.
- kej 3y agoI feel like I've read some variation of "new thing will make tooth brushing obsolete" every few years for the last two decades at least, but they never seem to come to fruition.
- ipnon 3y agoInterestingly enough, it's a cannabinoid receptor agonist. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ardp.202200493 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ardp.202200493
- beefman 3y agoConveniently doesn't mention that DIM smells horrible!
- smeej 3y ago> A significant portion of the global population experiences persistent issues with dental plaque and cavities or will face them at some time. How significant a percentage are we talking about? Pretty much every dentist I've seen throughout my life has told me that I'm somehow immune to cavities. I don't know how they're figuring this out just from looking in my mouth (I'm not aware of having had any saliva tests or anything like that), but they've all agreed about it. I wonder if I'm in some less significant percentage of people who foster this bacteria (or something like it) on our own somehow?
- peteradio 3y ago[flagged]
- ipnon 3y agoIn my opinion this is a bad comment because its only purpose is to denigrate the person you’re replying to.
- micromacrofoot 3y agostop brushing and find out
- smeej 3y agoI've only ever been a once-a-day brusher and "only if something is stuck" flosser, to no ill effects so far. That's as far as I'm willing to push it though.
- HWR_14 3y agoThey can see the beginning stages of cavity development long before they need to be dealt with. I would take it as "my teeth are abnormally healthy"
- tremon 3y agoPretty much every dentist I've seen throughout my life has told me that I'm somehow immune to cavities My dentist told me there's two types of mouth flora: one that causes cavities, and one that causes calculus. My mouth seems to be of the latter.
- ravenstine 3y agoThis molecule, DIM, supposedly breaks up the biofilms of S. mutans. But there are other substances known to break up biofilms, including xylitol. There's been research around this, and it suggests that it can work but only under the condition that sucrose (and possibly other sugars) not be present. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32932149/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32932149/ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342535934_Xylitol_and_erythritol_inhibit_real-time_biofilm_formation_of_Streptococcus_mutans https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342535934_Xylitol_a...
- klipt 3y agoWe already have a reliable way to break up biofilm, it's called brushing ... unfortunately you have to repeat the process twice daily.
- Mayzie 3y agoReally only needs to be done once daily. Twice daily is recommended because people tend to not brush their teeth properly and miss things. Doing it twice tends to hit the areas missed in the first pass.
- ironborn123 3y agoSo any salad that contains chopped cabbage/broccoli and eaten daily should do the trick?
- briHass 3y agoI'd like to see more research on bleach (sodium hypochlorite) for this purpose. The limited studies out there are very promising for bleach as a mouthwash, where it compares favorably to chlorhexidine, another bacteria killer available as prescription mouthwash. Unlike chlorhexidine, however, it doesn't stain teeth as significantly, and it's obviously much cheaper. (Note: the concentration is 0.1% typically, so diluted from the 6% common in the jug) One interesting point I saw was that bleach is unlikely to promote oral cancers, unlike alcohol mouthwash or oxygenating compounds like hydrogen peroxide.
- vidarh 3y agoWhere is chlorhexidine prescription only? Here (UK) there are several brands sold everywhere as daily mouthwash. Staining w/chlorhexidine appears to be very individual.
- klipt 3y agoI've had several hygienists and dentists tell me Closys (sodium fluoride) is great for killing the bad bacteria without staining.
- nikolay 3y agoWhen I read this, I ordered powdered DIM, and xylitol to make my own mouthwash. But there was an old study about stevia extract, which was also found to be extremely effective against biofilms, so, maybe I may add add more to the cocktail. Best would be to chew also mastic cum before swashing as that was found also highly effective against cavity-causing bacteria.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoMy DDS alleged that the bacteria strain(s) that promote plaque tend to out-compete the one(s) that leads to cavities. Can anyone confirm?
- Obscurity4340 3y agoI've always had this idea for something you could put on your teeth before you start eating like those trays people use for whitening but obviously more robust. I wonder why nobody has ever pursued this angle, stop the food from ever touching your teeth in the first place. I'm sure someone will be able to shoot this down in 3 seconds but I fail to see why one couldn't simply create a flexible barrier to prevent all these problems. Sort of like a dental dam for eating