5 ms·

Oil is 100% non-renewable. A single, relatively efficient ICE vehicle will use over 45,000 lbs of gasoline over its lifetime (excluding all the oil to extract,

by gibolt 3y ago

Oil is 100% non-renewable. A single, relatively efficient ICE vehicle will use over 45,000 lbs of gasoline over its lifetime (excluding all the oil to extract, refine, and transport that gasoline). The entire oil supply chain has no chance of ever becoming sustainable.

iancmceachern 3y ago
So is lithium Since I'm being down voted, I'm adding a reference: 5% of lithium batteries are currently recycled https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/sustainability/lithium-ion-battery-recycling#:~:text=A%20Review%20of%20the%20Current,8%20million%20tons%20of%20waste https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/sustainability/li.... So, not renewable
- somewhat_drunk 3y ago
  I can't tell if you actually believe your logic is sound or you're just trolling.
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    A bit of both. I'm trying to say that it's not so cut and dry. Making lithium batteries and thr mining of lithium is a messy business. It's not a panacea. We need to be honest and realistic about the costs of doing that business, and often we arent. 75% of all aluminum every smelted is still in use today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=Today%2C%20about%2075%20percent%20of,recycling%20are%20taken%20into%20account https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=.... We need to get lithium to that level before we make any more big, environmentally hazardous mines.
    - zaroth 3y ago
      A chokehold on new mining of a crucial ore for renewables sounds like a terrible overall idea. The lifecycle of the lithium that will come from this hypothetical mine is probably 20 years from now until the first time the material will be recycled. The highly profitable recycling logistics will have been fully worked out a decade before it’s needed for a new mine’s output.
      - iancmceachern 3y ago
        This is reducto ad absurdum. I'm not proposing that. I'm proposing we put equal effort into both. My expectation is that we don't currently. 75% of all aluminum ever made is still in use. We should be able to do that with lithium too.
        zaroth 3y ago
        I was responding to when you said “before we make any more big, environmentally hazardous mines”. The recycling effort is highly profitable, there’s little need to subsidize it. It will simply grow and consume all available supply. Large scale lithium battery storage is still truly just getting started. We need to be super smart with lining up supply for essential inputs for growth.
        iancmceachern 3y ago
        Then why hasn't it been keeping up? It seems that lithium recycling is way behind exploration and mining. Why? It's highly profitable as you say, are there technology limitations?
        Sabinus 3y ago
        There isn't enough material yet for a large robust recycling industry, and collection of small batteries is still an issue.
- gibolt 3y ago
  While the 5% number may be presently accurate, it is mainly for tiny Lithium batteries. Those from vehicles are of very large + high value, and will likely end up well above 95% recycling rate whenever it is time for them to be scrapped. This also ignores the large number of those batteries that will be re-used in grid storage after being removed from a car, and eventually recycled.
- scythe 3y ago
  >Since I'm being down voted, I'm adding a reference: >5% of lithium batteries are currently recycled Whether something is currently recycled and whether it can be recycled are two different questions. For a long time, copper wasn't recycled very often. Then the price went up, and now it's very valuable trash. Lithium is absolutely renewable. It may not be renewed, but it is renewable.
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    Agreed. Let's put more effort into getting that 5% up to 100%, that's where the real effort and headlines should focus. 75% of all aluminum ever produced is still in use today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=Today%2C%20about%2075%20percent%20of,recycling%20are%20taken%20into%20account https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=.... We need to get lithium to that level
    - gibolt 3y ago
      As the value goes up, companies that sort trash and recycling will be incentivized to separate the electronics, and claim the value as an extra revenue stream.
hollerith 3y ago
Not true: we might learn to pull carbon from the atmosphere and turn it into gasoline so that instead of using solar and wind energy to charge electric cars, we use to make gasoline for ICE cars.
- danans 3y ago
  Making gasoline for cars from renewable energy isn't going to happen. The end to end efficiency of that process (Hydrolysis, CO2 capture, Fischer Tropf) would likely measure in the single digit percentages. Charging a car battery (especially from local solar) can be over 90% efficient. When you include the very low tank to wheels efficiency of an ICE vehicle, the overall efficiency is even worse.
  - danans 3y ago
    > Hydrolysis Self-correction: I meant electrolysis, not hydrolysis
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- scythe 3y ago
  That isn't really "renewing", though. If part of the process involves the substance being dispersed in the environment and then extracted again, that's different from capturing waste as it's produced. Furthermore, you're not necessarily capturing the same carbon dioxide that you released, but when you recycle a battery, it's the same lithium. And getting the lithium from a battery should take less energy than mining it, while capturing and reducing carbon dioxide definitely requires more energy than pumping oil from the ground. So I don't think this analogy holds up.
- kelnos 3y ago
  I'm having trouble seeing how it'd be feasible to do all that while expending less energy than you can get out of the resulting gasoline. But we demonstrably get more energy out of the useful life of a solar panel than we have to put in to manufacture it.

by gibolt 3y ago

iancmceachern 3y ago

So is lithium Since I'm being down voted, I'm adding a reference: 5% of lithium batteries are currently recycled https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/sustainability/lithium-ion-battery-recycling#:~:text=A%20Review%20of%20the%20Current,8%20million%20tons%20of%20waste https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/sustainability/li.... So, not renewable

somewhat_drunk 3y ago
I can't tell if you actually believe your logic is sound or you're just trolling.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  A bit of both. I'm trying to say that it's not so cut and dry. Making lithium batteries and thr mining of lithium is a messy business. It's not a panacea. We need to be honest and realistic about the costs of doing that business, and often we arent. 75% of all aluminum every smelted is still in use today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=Today%2C%20about%2075%20percent%20of,recycling%20are%20taken%20into%20account https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=.... We need to get lithium to that level before we make any more big, environmentally hazardous mines.
  - zaroth 3y ago
    A chokehold on new mining of a crucial ore for renewables sounds like a terrible overall idea. The lifecycle of the lithium that will come from this hypothetical mine is probably 20 years from now until the first time the material will be recycled. The highly profitable recycling logistics will have been fully worked out a decade before it’s needed for a new mine’s output.
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      This is reducto ad absurdum. I'm not proposing that. I'm proposing we put equal effort into both. My expectation is that we don't currently. 75% of all aluminum ever made is still in use. We should be able to do that with lithium too.
      - zaroth 3y ago
        I was responding to when you said “before we make any more big, environmentally hazardous mines”. The recycling effort is highly profitable, there’s little need to subsidize it. It will simply grow and consume all available supply. Large scale lithium battery storage is still truly just getting started. We need to be super smart with lining up supply for essential inputs for growth.
        iancmceachern 3y ago
        Then why hasn't it been keeping up? It seems that lithium recycling is way behind exploration and mining. Why? It's highly profitable as you say, are there technology limitations?
        Sabinus 3y ago
        There isn't enough material yet for a large robust recycling industry, and collection of small batteries is still an issue.
gibolt 3y ago
While the 5% number may be presently accurate, it is mainly for tiny Lithium batteries. Those from vehicles are of very large + high value, and will likely end up well above 95% recycling rate whenever it is time for them to be scrapped. This also ignores the large number of those batteries that will be re-used in grid storage after being removed from a car, and eventually recycled.
scythe 3y ago
>Since I'm being down voted, I'm adding a reference: >5% of lithium batteries are currently recycled Whether something is currently recycled and whether it can be recycled are two different questions. For a long time, copper wasn't recycled very often. Then the price went up, and now it's very valuable trash. Lithium is absolutely renewable. It may not be renewed, but it is renewable.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  Agreed. Let's put more effort into getting that 5% up to 100%, that's where the real effort and headlines should focus. 75% of all aluminum ever produced is still in use today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=Today%2C%20about%2075%20percent%20of,recycling%20are%20taken%20into%20account https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=.... We need to get lithium to that level
  - gibolt 3y ago
    As the value goes up, companies that sort trash and recycling will be incentivized to separate the electronics, and claim the value as an extra revenue stream.

hollerith 3y ago

Not true: we might learn to pull carbon from the atmosphere and turn it into gasoline so that instead of using solar and wind energy to charge electric cars, we use to make gasoline for ICE cars.

danans 3y ago
Making gasoline for cars from renewable energy isn't going to happen. The end to end efficiency of that process (Hydrolysis, CO2 capture, Fischer Tropf) would likely measure in the single digit percentages. Charging a car battery (especially from local solar) can be over 90% efficient. When you include the very low tank to wheels efficiency of an ICE vehicle, the overall efficiency is even worse.
- danans 3y ago
  > Hydrolysis Self-correction: I meant electrolysis, not hydrolysis
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
scythe 3y ago
That isn't really "renewing", though. If part of the process involves the substance being dispersed in the environment and then extracted again, that's different from capturing waste as it's produced. Furthermore, you're not necessarily capturing the same carbon dioxide that you released, but when you recycle a battery, it's the same lithium. And getting the lithium from a battery should take less energy than mining it, while capturing and reducing carbon dioxide definitely requires more energy than pumping oil from the ground. So I don't think this analogy holds up.
kelnos 3y ago
I'm having trouble seeing how it'd be feasible to do all that while expending less energy than you can get out of the resulting gasoline. But we demonstrably get more energy out of the useful life of a solar panel than we have to put in to manufacture it.