3 ms·

Apple endorses bill that forces companies to disclose their carbon footprint

33 points by stalfosknight 3y ago

jiveturkey42 3y ago
Obligatory reminder that ‘carbon footprint’ as a term invented by BP after the gulf oil spill https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sham https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sh...
- missedthecue 3y ago
  Hmm. Interesting theory. But I just ran a google query of "carbon footprint", searching the internet until April 19th 2010, the day before the oil spill happened. There are thousands and thousands of results. I am seeing results well into the 1990s.
xnx 3y ago
I've never understood how "carbon footprint" can reasonably be assessed. What gets counted? The fuel used to power the diggers that mine the materials to make an iPhone? The salaries paid to employees to take vacations to Fiji?
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  It will be assessed how it is defined by the legislation. This isn't a "gotcha" or whatever. Nearly every single measured value in human existence depends on agreed upon standards.
  - jldugger 3y ago
    And congress has the power to define weight and measures =)
    - photoGrant 3y ago
      Sure, but not specifically for the sake of enabling the count of a carbon footprint. There's tinfoil hats, and then there's paper hats with big crayons.
      - jldugger 3y ago
        But isn't this clause how we got NIST? Who, among other things, regulates time itself?
  - everybodyknows 3y ago
    OP's question stipulated "reasonably".
  - dataflow 3y ago
    You misunderstood the question. It wasn't "how can anyone possibly figure out what is supposed to be measured" but rather more like "what if we measure the wrong thing".
- Gravey 3y ago
  Employee commute method & distance would be an interesting datapoint to factor in.
htss2013 3y ago
Does Apple include Foxconn and all its other vendors in its calculation, including materials producers? Or does if not counf if you outsource?
dataflow 3y ago
Is there any reason to believe "offsets" won't be used to game these numbers?
- Gravey 3y ago
  Is that not the point of carbon offsets, at least in principle. If you emit X and sequester Y then it would be correct to consider your net emissions to be X - Y.
  - dataflow 3y ago
    No. In an alternate universe something that work. In ours they're basically scams at this point. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37284764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37284764 https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/24/carbon-credit-speculators-could-lose-billions-as-offsets-deemed-worthless-aoe https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/24/carbon-c... https://www.google.com/search?q=carbon+offsets+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com https://www.google.com/search?q=carbon+offsets+site%3Anews.y... P.S. I don't believe it's "sequester Y", but something more like "promise we wouldn't burn Y that we also promise was otherwise definitely going to be burned". I could be off here, feel free to double check.
    - Gravey 3y ago
      The news article you’ve linked seems to suggest that these scam offset companies may soon be losing their ability to sell their credits. Carbon offset startups are booming right now, not all of them will succeed, but there are viable technologies already being scaled up. For example, Heirloom Carbon has just made front page news today with a 200 million dollar deal they signed with Microsoft. All this is to say, I agree that there are some bad actors in the space, and it’s great that they’re being called out for it. To suggest they’re all scams is an unfair, and largely inaccurate statement.
      - dataflow 3y ago
        > To suggest they’re all scams is an unfair, and largely inaccurate statement. It's jarring to read this when earlier you believed carbon offsets represent actual sequestration, and I pointed out that wasn't the case. > Carbon offset startups are booming right now, not all of them will succeed [...] For example, Heirloom Carbon has just made front page news today with a 200 million dollar deal they signed with Microsoft. Are you aware of how plastic recycling was a scam? or do you believe that is a "largely inaccurate statement" too? Businesses "booming" or signing massive deals with each other in no way tells you anything about the planet benefiting as a result. If anything, it tells you they've found a very effective way to spend money on PR. Historically that hasn't frequently been a good sign for the planet. > but there are viable technologies already being scaled up There were viable plastic recycling technologies already being scaled up too.
Bostonian 3y ago
Apple is a very profitable company, with the largest market cap in the U.S. Its cost of computing a carbon footprint as a fraction of its revenues is probably much lower than for most other companies. It is common for companies and professional groups to endorse legislation that will hamper competitors.
- stalfosknight 3y ago
  It's not just that it is a small percentage of their market cap. You're completely leaving out all of the effort and resources they commit to being environmentally responsible¹. 1. https://www.apple.com/environment/ https://www.apple.com/environment/
  - lotsoweiners 3y ago
    That’s just corporate greenwashing BS. Apple should put their money making hardware: iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch on a 3 year product release cycle (since barely anything changes year to year). They should make their products repairable. They should not be asking employees to RTO. Once they do those then I’ll believe the corporate marketing slideshow.
    - stalfosknight 3y ago
      Angry cynicism doesn’t refute any of my points which I have backed up with a citation.
      - jraph 3y ago
        We can't really make use of this citation because it's marketing, not objective scientific data. This page was done by a marketing team who want to sell you a nice story and a nice picture, not by scientists who are seeking some kind of truth. This web page that says Apple is environmentally friendly weighs more than 20 MB. edit: I just read it, there isn't anything about screen, battery and chipset / CPU production and material sourcing. In short, the big part of what is an actual issue with computer hardware and the environment.

33 points by stalfosknight 3y ago

Obligatory reminder that ‘carbon footprint’ as a term invented by BP after the gulf oil spill https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sham https://mashable.com/feature/carbon-footprint-pr-campaign-sh...

missedthecue 3y ago
Hmm. Interesting theory. But I just ran a google query of "carbon footprint", searching the internet until April 19th 2010, the day before the oil spill happened. There are thousands and thousands of results. I am seeing results well into the 1990s.

xnx 3y ago

I've never understood how "carbon footprint" can reasonably be assessed. What gets counted? The fuel used to power the diggers that mine the materials to make an iPhone? The salaries paid to employees to take vacations to Fiji?

mrguyorama 3y ago
It will be assessed how it is defined by the legislation. This isn't a "gotcha" or whatever. Nearly every single measured value in human existence depends on agreed upon standards.
- jldugger 3y ago
  And congress has the power to define weight and measures =)
  - photoGrant 3y ago
    Sure, but not specifically for the sake of enabling the count of a carbon footprint. There's tinfoil hats, and then there's paper hats with big crayons.
    - jldugger 3y ago
      But isn't this clause how we got NIST? Who, among other things, regulates time itself?
- everybodyknows 3y ago
  OP's question stipulated "reasonably".
- dataflow 3y ago
  You misunderstood the question. It wasn't "how can anyone possibly figure out what is supposed to be measured" but rather more like "what if we measure the wrong thing".
Gravey 3y ago
Employee commute method & distance would be an interesting datapoint to factor in.

htss2013 3y ago

Does Apple include Foxconn and all its other vendors in its calculation, including materials producers? Or does if not counf if you outsource?

dataflow 3y ago

Is there any reason to believe "offsets" won't be used to game these numbers?

Gravey 3y ago
Is that not the point of carbon offsets, at least in principle. If you emit X and sequester Y then it would be correct to consider your net emissions to be X - Y.
- dataflow 3y ago
  No. In an alternate universe something that work. In ours they're basically scams at this point. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37284764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37284764 https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/24/carbon-credit-speculators-could-lose-billions-as-offsets-deemed-worthless-aoe https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/24/carbon-c... https://www.google.com/search?q=carbon+offsets+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com https://www.google.com/search?q=carbon+offsets+site%3Anews.y... P.S. I don't believe it's "sequester Y", but something more like "promise we wouldn't burn Y that we also promise was otherwise definitely going to be burned". I could be off here, feel free to double check.
  - Gravey 3y ago
    The news article you’ve linked seems to suggest that these scam offset companies may soon be losing their ability to sell their credits. Carbon offset startups are booming right now, not all of them will succeed, but there are viable technologies already being scaled up. For example, Heirloom Carbon has just made front page news today with a 200 million dollar deal they signed with Microsoft. All this is to say, I agree that there are some bad actors in the space, and it’s great that they’re being called out for it. To suggest they’re all scams is an unfair, and largely inaccurate statement.
    - dataflow 3y ago
      > To suggest they’re all scams is an unfair, and largely inaccurate statement. It's jarring to read this when earlier you believed carbon offsets represent actual sequestration, and I pointed out that wasn't the case. > Carbon offset startups are booming right now, not all of them will succeed [...] For example, Heirloom Carbon has just made front page news today with a 200 million dollar deal they signed with Microsoft. Are you aware of how plastic recycling was a scam? or do you believe that is a "largely inaccurate statement" too? Businesses "booming" or signing massive deals with each other in no way tells you anything about the planet benefiting as a result. If anything, it tells you they've found a very effective way to spend money on PR. Historically that hasn't frequently been a good sign for the planet. > but there are viable technologies already being scaled up There were viable plastic recycling technologies already being scaled up too.

Bostonian 3y ago

Apple is a very profitable company, with the largest market cap in the U.S. Its cost of computing a carbon footprint as a fraction of its revenues is probably much lower than for most other companies. It is common for companies and professional groups to endorse legislation that will hamper competitors.

stalfosknight 3y ago
It's not just that it is a small percentage of their market cap. You're completely leaving out all of the effort and resources they commit to being environmentally responsible¹. 1. https://www.apple.com/environment/ https://www.apple.com/environment/
- lotsoweiners 3y ago
  That’s just corporate greenwashing BS. Apple should put their money making hardware: iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch on a 3 year product release cycle (since barely anything changes year to year). They should make their products repairable. They should not be asking employees to RTO. Once they do those then I’ll believe the corporate marketing slideshow.
  - stalfosknight 3y ago
    Angry cynicism doesn’t refute any of my points which I have backed up with a citation.
    - jraph 3y ago
      We can't really make use of this citation because it's marketing, not objective scientific data. This page was done by a marketing team who want to sell you a nice story and a nice picture, not by scientists who are seeking some kind of truth. This web page that says Apple is environmentally friendly weighs more than 20 MB. edit: I just read it, there isn't anything about screen, battery and chipset / CPU production and material sourcing. In short, the big part of what is an actual issue with computer hardware and the environment.