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Am I the only one who thinks you should not give a 2 week notice to your current employer when you get an offer, so that in the event your offer gets rescinded,
by game_the0ry 3y ago
Am I the only one who thinks you should not give a 2 week notice to your current employer when you get an offer, so that in the event your offer gets rescinded, you still have your current job?
I get a ton of push back when I suggest this, but am I being unreasonable when I am trying to look out for my own interests when I know my employer wont? My employer can weather a few bad months, but some people can't lose income for more than one month.
Or are most employees are too scared to piss off some people they might not ever see again anyway?
- colordrops 3y agoCompanies don't give you two weeks when they let you go. Why should you give them shit?
- sharkweek 3y agoBecause unfortunately the power dynamic is such that people will know you quit on the spot and it’ll burn networking opportunities down the road. Less an issue at a big enough company though so there’s that.
- Apocryphon 3y agoMaybe they won’t remember. Maybe they’ll think you had a valid personal reason.
- moate 3y agoMaybe you’ll go the rest of your life never finding out how they felt because of the myriad reasons you won’t run into those people. Giving notice is risk aversion.
- Apocryphon 3y agoAs someone who’s gone out of their way to give three weeks’ notice, I’m not one to test the limits- though I’ve realized extra time given is hardly appreciated. But I’m not about to condemn others for taking risks against an uncaring corporate structure.
- jgalt212 3y agoYou say tomato, I say salary continuation.
- bitcharmer 3y agoWhat are you talking about? I have a 3-month notice period; that goes both ways. I'm assuming you're from USA where employees have very little rights?
- colordrops 3y agoYes, I'm from the US. Despite many of the comments here stating the contrary, I've been working in large tech companies for 30 years, and almost every termination has been an immediate walk out, severance or not. At one of the companies which I won't name, they didn't even let people go to their desks to get their personal items.
- smeej 3y agoIf you're in a role that is even remotely security sensitive, including having any kind of direct communication with clients, odds are also pretty high that they'll just accept your resignation immediately and not have you work out the two weeks. It's more or less the same reason they typically don't give notice to people in those roles when they're getting laid off and just surprise them with it out of the blue. There's slightly less risk you'll say or do something harmful when you're the one who chose to leave (and if they have half a brain, they should realize you could already have done whatever you were going to do in the previous two weeks too), but it happens a lot.
- jjav 3y ago> If you're in a role that is even remotely security sensitive, including having any kind of direct communication with clients, odds are also pretty high that they'll just accept your resignation immediately and not have you work out the two weeks. Not my experience at all, from many high-level roles with access to everything. I've always stayed at least 2-3 weeks for a clean transition.
- smeej 3y agoCongratulations on being an exception to the "pretty high" odds, I guess. I'm glad people haven't been like that to you.
- jjav 3y agoMy point isn't about me, it's to say this is the norm. In well over 20 years of a career, I've also seen a lot of coworkers resign and not even once have any of them been kicked out the same day.
- groby_b 3y agoHey, it's an at-will employment place, that goes both ways. If your company would like that to be different, they have the option to offer you a contract that stipulates notice periods for either side. (And that means you are guaranteed employment during the notice period, IIRC). They chose not to. So they are ipso facto OK with you leaving without notice.
- colordrops 3y agoIt's crazy how so many people don't get this. There is no loyalty from the company, so employees should not give any loyalty back.
- gymbeaux 3y ago[flagged]
- colordrops 3y agoThis forum is run by moneyed corporate interests. It's part of a startup incubator. Many here are running or starting their own businesses, so it's in their interest to maintain an imbalance of power.
- gymbeaux 3y agoCareful, your comment might get flagged
- Aurornis 3y agoThe employer version of this is severance, not a notice period. Your logic is flawed. Getting severance is better than a notice period anyway because you can get a new job and still get the money.
- gymbeaux 3y agoThe employer version is bringing you into a meeting with HR and telling you you've been let go. Sure, sometimes people get severance, but I've never worked anywhere that does that.
- Aurornis 3y agoThis would be good advice in a world where rescinded offers are extremely common and employers refused to take people back after their 2 weeks notice. However, the opposite is true: Rescinded offers are extremely rare. When it does happen at a company of reasonable size, it’s so surprising that it’s a headline like this one. We’re here talking about it because it’s an extraordinary occurrence, not a common thing that happens all the time. When you over-index on rare risks like rescinded offers, you start to lose sight of what you risk by doing things like quitting jobs without notice. Your professional reputation may end up mattering more than you think some day, and disappearing from a job without notice is the kind of thing that people remember you for. Refusing to give any notice because you might possibly have a 1-in-10,000 rescinded offer reminds me of my grandmother-in-law who refused to fly on an airplane out of fear of airplane crashes. She definitely avoided death by airplane crash, but in the process she missed out on a lot of vacations and family events. Don’t overindex on the rare thing.
- NikolaNovak 3y agoThis. I know that HN zeitgeist, weirdly, in some strange way likes to be "interchangeable cogs in a machine" (focus on standard easily employable tech stack, avoid learning company-specific stuff, change jobs frequently, be easily replaceable); but in a LOT of companies leaving with no notice puts everybody (coworkers, management, business, client - real human beings) in a crazy bad spot. Many large companies have a checkbox on whether a leaving employee is rehireable. I've seen enough people leave then come back, that it may not always be as ok as it seems to burn those bridges - not to mention that in some ways industry is surprisingly "small" - people move and bad reputation spreads. If Bob asks Fatima who worked with James, should he hire him - you can bet this'll come up. And if that feels like a low hypothetical risk - it's a lot higher than risk of rescinded offers.
- throwawaysleep 3y ago> but in a LOT of companies leaving with no notice puts everybody (coworkers, management, business, client - real human beings) in a crazy bad spot. Not my problem. Luckily for them, I stay because I practice overemployment.
- fnordpiglet 3y agoI don’t think rescinded offers are very common, certainly not as a percentage of job changes. While you are entitled to not give notice doing so puts your managers and coworkers in a bit of a lurch. This accumulates ill will that offsets all the work you did to generate good will. As your career advances your best way to find a good job is through your network of past managers and coworkers. Burning through your goodwill as some sort of social protest against the state of tech employment is certainly an option, but it’ll hinder your chances of getting greater roles of higher trust based on your reputation vs cold applying into places that don’t know you. As a manager I’ve always asked people to go home immediately throughout my orgs, though. I appreciate when people offer notice and I’ll pay them for a period to be available if we need it, but ultimately: * a dead body stinking up the team doesn’t help * if you need someone for two weeks to transition work, you aren’t managing your teams well to begin with. Everyone should be important but no one should be indispensable.
- throwaway290 3y agoIs there a problem with "I am leaving but feel free to call me with questions while you transition"?
- fnordpiglet 3y agoI have certainly done that in my career, but it was more because I couldn’t stand to stay there a minute longer. The right answer is to ask if it’s ok. Yes it’s asymmetric and in that sense unfair, but it’s important to realize your manager and your coworkers don’t decide to lay you off without notice. But if you walk away without notice, they’re the ones who feel burned. The layers of management that decide layoff policy don’t even notice when you quit and how you quit.
- duxup 3y agoI don’t think rescinded offers are common enough to bother.
- bozhark 3y agoAt will is at will
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- YeBanKo 3y agoI am in touch with my former coworkers and some managers. Over my work career sometimes i followed them, sometimes they follow me. I may not have loyalty to the company, but i have loyalty to my team.
- hef19898 3y agoThis! I am putting my job, as in the thing I was hired to do and achieve first (sometimes at the expense on my relationships with other people, as this turned out to be not helpfull, who'd have thought, I try to not do that as much anymore) as long as I am supposed to do said job. I am loyal to my team, as long as long as we do that job together. Both things stop if the job is no longer a thing. But then there is a core group of people I worked with, that forms a team sorts that extends across jobs, companies and even industries. The moment I realize I cannot be loyal to my team anymore, and there are different eeasons for this, it is time to step back and think about what to do next.
- rmk 3y agoIt’s rarely about companies, and often about people. That manager you pissed off by not giving any notice may talk trash about you in backchannel reference checks; or maybe you want to keep the relationship going to leave the door open for future employment opportunities; the industry is small and many people bump into one another more than once in their careers.
- game_the0ry 3y ago> That manager you pissed off by not giving any notice may talk trash about you in backchannel reference checks This is potentially illegal. Look up "tortious interference". > or maybe you want to keep the relationship going to leave the door open for future employment opportunities In my experience, my boss is usually pissed about me leaving anyway, even with 2-week notice. And then they try to backfill my position ASAP anyway. > the industry is small and many people bump into one another more than once in their careers. I switched into tech from a very small industry. Tech is huge in contrast to a lot of other industries. And people bumping into each other has a smaller affect than interviewing for better job.
- rmk 3y agoIllegal maybe depending on your jurisdiction but it’s something that happens more often than you think. I am not here to convince you to give notice, but only stating the reasons people do give a courtesy notice. As always there are people who don’t see the need to observe certain courtesies, but they are the exception not the norm.
- esel2k 3y agoI would go the other way: If an offer is rescinded then 3 months of salary is to be paid. For going back to your employer I think if you have a good relationship and the position is not filling it should be a nobrainer.
- roflyear 3y agoWell, in the US at least, you're not obligated to give notice, but yes you could (and will) burn bridges.
- game_the0ry 3y ago> ...you could (and will) burn bridges. You burn bridges when you leave anyway. I have never had go back to an old employer, and I have worked at a lot of companies. Personally, I focus on building new bridges, rather than maintaining old ones that don't lead anywhere new.
- oxygen_crisis 3y agoI've never gone back to a company I've left before, but more than once I've gone back to working for someone I reported to before, at a different company. The analogy is flawed, because the "old bridges" can move and wind up along your path forward.
- TigeriusKirk 3y agoI've never gone back to an old company. But I have worked for a previous manager again. He left the original company too, but set up contracting as an outside consultant to the software we built. He'd hire me to do some of the work as needed. Great gig for him, not bad for me. That's not that rare of a setup if you're working on large B2B software packages.
- ithkuil 3y agoIt's not uncommon to leave a company A go work for company B and a few years later go work for company C hired by a former colleague you met at company A, who perhaps now has some important role there. That's favourable for both parts. Your former colleague that hires you knows you and your qualities. And it's also good for you because you have some edge in the negotiations because you know you have a strong sponsor. There is always an upside of being a good colleague with the largest amount of people. That increases the chances you're finding yourself in this favourable networking situation. And it also makes life better for everybody involved when it doesnt
- 3y ago
- MikeTheRocker 3y agoI am coming around to this line if thinking much more lately. Especially if you work at a big company in a fungible role. The power imbalance is such that it costs the company essentially 0% of their assets to abruptly terminate you, but for most people it would start a countdown to financial ruin measured in weeks to months. The only snag is that I would feel remorseful for the former coworkers I would be saddling with undue additional workload.
- CapstanRoller 3y ago>I would feel remorseful for the former coworkers I would be saddling with undue additional workload Huh? How do you control the workload of your team, especially as a departing IC? Do you mean you're a manager who piles on the work then quits?
- p1esk 3y agoI think he meant if he leaves, his coworkers would have to take on his tasks. That’s why I like sprint based development - if my boss wants me to do something unplanned, he has to remove something planned first.
- xkqd 3y agoYeah, after almost a decade of “agile” I’ve never seen this to be the case other than when I was super green. Usually, everything’s high priority and it needs to be delivered by day XYZ/ASAP regardless of sprint alignment or milestones.
- p1esk 3y agoMy boss and I plan tasks at the start of each sprint, and once the tasks are chosen the only way to add a more is to remove something from the sprint. Asking more output from me than what was agreed upon would be similar to me asking my boss for more money. In both cases it’s perfectly reasonable to refuse the request (unless I underperform or am underpaid), and if either side is not satisfied, part ways.
- zucked 3y agoI think most people operate under the presumption that both parties are acting in good faith. Obviously, there are instances where that isn't true. Choppy economic conditions lead to both sides of the table bending or even breaking norms. I tend to put stock in giving two weeks of notice as I think it's polite. That being said, I've never had the rug pulled on me, either.
- colordrops 3y agoCompanies never give anyone 2 weeks notice. They do not deserve it, and no one should give it, unless they have passion about the team and project they are leaving, and even then they should just wrap that up before giving notice.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- indecisive_user 3y agoMost large companies that do layoffs give over a month of notice+severance. Perhaps they're not required to, but to be given less than a 2 week heads up with no severance is pretty rare.
- gymbeaux 3y agoHow large? I don't think Allstate does this and they're Fortune 100. There were layoffs/a reorg back in 2018 in at least Allstate Benefits division but I don't think anyone got severance. I think everyone with more than X years of service was automatically not considered for severance. I know there are many former coworkers who are still there who certainly aren't still there because of their talent. Age is the only factor that comes to mind.
- NikolaNovak 3y agoThat's just... Not even remotely true in my neck of the woods. Everywhere I worked at: - if individual is not performing, people spend months trying to help them gear up before even considering laying them off - if large layoffs are happening, there's time and severance. Even the ones we see in the news and perceived as sudden and unfair, the notification may be unexpected, but you're rarely laid off effective tomorrow.
- polishdude20 3y agoThat may be what we see happening more and more in the future. The recommended "give two weeks notice" will be something we stop recommending to young grads (or any other employee for that matter). As employers push in the direction of distrust, the employees must do what's right for them in reaction to this distrust.