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Telemetry and spyware are not the same thing (irrespective of whatever Firefox is doing). There is a big difference between tracking to try to understand how us

Telemetry and spyware are not the same thing (irrespective of whatever Firefox is doing). There is a big difference between tracking to try to understand how users are using a software or getting information on bugs and crashes, and tracking with the aim of monetizing personal data. I'm personally not crazy about telemetry implying information is uploaded to a software provider, but from experience I know that trying to create a software without getting in-use data is basically flying blind. You cannot expect users to tell you about problems or bugs they have, they will just stop using your software and you will never know why.

gabereiser 3y ago
Tracking is tracking, no matter what outcomes you derive from it.
- westpfelia 3y ago
  So your general thesis is that software that tracks errors and problems the software might have, and software that deliberately slows down the machine to make you buy new hardware A LA Apple is 100% the same thing?
  - gabereiser 3y ago
    I’m saying anything that tracks a user is not good for mankind. Telemetry is increasingly used for nefarious purposes. I have no problem if you want to track your own apps, but you can leave me out of it. You can derive my behavior from my access, my id, and my requests. You do not need to track my clicks, my history, my search phrases, my shopping habits, my location (unless I grant it to you), my cookies… You may not force feed me cookies.
  - sneak 3y ago
    The Apple throttling thing was specifically to extend the life of the device. When a battery is old, if the CPU is not throttled, the device will instantly power off when the draw is too high. Apple was throttling the CPU when the battery was old and could not sustain such power draw peaks in an effort to make the device remain usable for a longer period with a mostly-consumed battery pack. Had they not done so, the device would be unusable sooner. To assert that it is to make you buy new hardware is a factual error.
    - gsich 3y ago
      Propaganda. Even if, a user toggle would have worked wonders.
      - kaba0 3y ago
        Which is what ended up being implemented. That was a PR disaster on apple's part, but their motivation was genuinely good. They could have just let the phones power off randomly, like they were 5-6 years old -- android wouldn't even know about them anymore.
        gsich 3y ago
        Random poweroffs could not happen, not with the current those devices are drawing.
        kaba0 3y ago
        And what do you think happens when that currency level can’t be drawn from the battery? There literally were many reported cases of random reboots.
    - cuddlyogre 3y ago
      A replaceable battery is a better solution.
      - kaba0 3y ago
        They are replaceable. In a service for a low fee after 6 years of usage.
        cuddlyogre 3y ago
        Paying apple hundreds of dollars to do something the owner of the phone should be able to do while waiting in line at the store is not an acceptable alterative.
- mozvalentin 3y ago
  You can actually see all of the telemetry data Firefox is sending by going to about:telemetry in your browser. You can also see all of the probes it could be collecting here: https://probes.telemetry.mozilla.org/ https://probes.telemetry.mozilla.org/ Keep in mind that the telemetry that is captured in Firefox goes through a thorough review process, so that it respects user privacy: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Data_Collection https://wiki.mozilla.org/Data_Collection
  - krono 3y ago
    This statement is false. Even with all telemetry disabled (including the option "Allow Firefox to send technical and interaction data to Mozilla") and without anything showing on that page, the browser still sends out interaction data by means of so called "pings", URL parameters, etc.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Wow, a browser is making network connections, how dare it. Come on, these things are there so that if you are on "connected" to a network that require some registration, e.g. an airport, then you can actually be forwarded to that registration page. Like what do you even think, Mozilla people are sitting on top of all that sweet PING www.mozilla.org (3.161.119.172) 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from server-3-161-119-172.vie50.r.cloudfront.net (3.161.119.172): icmp_seq=1 ttl=248 time=4.06 ms 64 bytes from server-3-161-119-172.vie50.r.cloudfront.net (3.161.119.172): icmp_seq=2 ttl=248 time=4.16 ms 64 bytes from server-3-161-119-172.vie50.r.cloudfront.net (3.161.119.172): icmp_seq=3 ttl=248 time=3.64 ms What the hell would they do with that?
      - krono 3y ago
        It makes these connections even when all the things mentioned in the official "How to stop Firefox from making automatic connections"[1] are disabled. This includes the captive portal detection you allude to. Regardless: The browser asks me if I allow it to make these connections. I tell it in unmistakable and irrevocable terms that I do not. The browser makes these connections anyway. The problem was never the connections or the contents of the data stream. You were aware of this before posting your comment, and yet you commented anyway. You are a troll. 1: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/how-stop-firefox-making-automatic-connections#w_network-detection https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/how-stop-firefox-making...
Firmwarrior 3y ago
Firefox doesn't get to wear the white hat if they're doing a bunch of shady stuff and saying it's for my own good. By your logic, realistically, Google invading my privacy isn't a particularly big deal since they know the value of the data they're harvesting and will guard it. And third party data brokers are actually just making my web experience more tailored and relevant, so I should let them have their way with me too. Everyone has a good reason to cram something into my business.
- NegativeK 3y ago
  There's an obvious difference between diagnostic data and data that's used to push ads to me. People might still object to diagnostic data and Firefox's handling of it, but it's disingenuous to state that they're the same.
  - Firmwarrior 3y ago
    What is that obvious difference? It isn't obvious to me. They're both companies spying on people to improve their own products, ostensibly to the customers' benefit.
- kaba0 3y ago
  Ridiculous comment
  - Firmwarrior 3y ago
    Everything I said is 100% true. There are a lot of people on this very site working in adtech who don't feel like they're doing anything wrong at all and use the exact same logic that people use to justify "telemetry". In their mind, they're making a better product and a wealthier, more productive world in the process. You have literally no logical or moral delimiter between how Firefox spies on me to improve Firefox and how Windows does it or how ad companies do it. I'm sure you'll move the goalpost now and strain yourself to come up with something ex post facto, let's hear it.
    - 3y ago
sneak 3y ago
> There is a big difference between tracking to try to understand how users are using a software or getting information on bugs and crashes, and tracking with the aim of monetizing personal data. I don't see the difference. In one case you are trying to improve your product using stolen data (which presumably results in your user sat scores and/or userbase going up and you continuing to receive a paycheck, ie monetization), and in the other case you are just selling the stolen data directly. In both cases you are taking private data without consent and using it to get money, or money-equivalent things (like a better product or more users). Technically and philosophically there is absolutely no distinguishing feature between opt-out "telemetry" and spyware. Both are using private user activity information, exfiltrated silently and without affirmative consent.
- maccard 3y ago
  Like the argument with copyright, it's not theft. It's only theft if the user is deprived of something. > In both cases you are taking private data without consent and using it to get money, or money-equivalent things (like a better product or more users) This is just word salad. Opting in is consent. You are absolutely free to opt out, by following the clear instructions on the website [0], and you can continue to use the software. Your rights are being deprived here. Secondly, "money equivalent things" is a reductionist argument. Not everything fits neatly into a black and white "right" and "wrong" bucket, and arguing it does is forgetting about the fact that technology doesn't exist in a vacuum any more than any other product or industry. > Technically and philosophically there is absolutely no distinguishing feature between opt-out "telemetry" and spyware. Technically there's no difference between me sending any kind of data to a remote service. Using rote logic to infer behaviour is a fallacy, and when I read comments like this I end up (unfortunately) coming away thinking "this person has no critical thinking skills". I'm aware it's an ad-hominem, but logically there's no other explanation other than you can't possibly understand anything other than your narrow world view. [0] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/telemetry-clientid https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/telemetry-clientid
- taway1237 3y ago
  Spyware exists primarily to steal data, firefox also has "some" other uses. Calling firefox "spyware" dilutes the meaning by implying it's somehow similar to actual spyware.
JohnFen 3y ago
> Telemetry and spyware are not the same thing Telemetry is spyware if it's done without the active informed consent of the user. What the collected data is actually used for isn't relevant. Consent is the relevant factor.
- kaba0 3y ago
  I'm sure it is written in some license agreement you implicitly accept by downloading/installing the software.
  - sneak 3y ago
    That's not true. Firefox is free software. It is licensed under the MPL.

gabereiser 3y ago

Tracking is tracking, no matter what outcomes you derive from it.

westpfelia 3y ago
So your general thesis is that software that tracks errors and problems the software might have, and software that deliberately slows down the machine to make you buy new hardware A LA Apple is 100% the same thing?
- gabereiser 3y ago
  I’m saying anything that tracks a user is not good for mankind. Telemetry is increasingly used for nefarious purposes. I have no problem if you want to track your own apps, but you can leave me out of it. You can derive my behavior from my access, my id, and my requests. You do not need to track my clicks, my history, my search phrases, my shopping habits, my location (unless I grant it to you), my cookies… You may not force feed me cookies.
- sneak 3y ago
  The Apple throttling thing was specifically to extend the life of the device. When a battery is old, if the CPU is not throttled, the device will instantly power off when the draw is too high. Apple was throttling the CPU when the battery was old and could not sustain such power draw peaks in an effort to make the device remain usable for a longer period with a mostly-consumed battery pack. Had they not done so, the device would be unusable sooner. To assert that it is to make you buy new hardware is a factual error.
  - gsich 3y ago
    Propaganda. Even if, a user toggle would have worked wonders.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      Which is what ended up being implemented. That was a PR disaster on apple's part, but their motivation was genuinely good. They could have just let the phones power off randomly, like they were 5-6 years old -- android wouldn't even know about them anymore.
      - gsich 3y ago
        Random poweroffs could not happen, not with the current those devices are drawing.
        kaba0 3y ago
        And what do you think happens when that currency level can’t be drawn from the battery? There literally were many reported cases of random reboots.
  - cuddlyogre 3y ago
    A replaceable battery is a better solution.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      They are replaceable. In a service for a low fee after 6 years of usage.
      - cuddlyogre 3y ago
        Paying apple hundreds of dollars to do something the owner of the phone should be able to do while waiting in line at the store is not an acceptable alterative.
mozvalentin 3y ago
You can actually see all of the telemetry data Firefox is sending by going to about:telemetry in your browser. You can also see all of the probes it could be collecting here: https://probes.telemetry.mozilla.org/ https://probes.telemetry.mozilla.org/ Keep in mind that the telemetry that is captured in Firefox goes through a thorough review process, so that it respects user privacy: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Data_Collection https://wiki.mozilla.org/Data_Collection
- krono 3y ago
  This statement is false. Even with all telemetry disabled (including the option "Allow Firefox to send technical and interaction data to Mozilla") and without anything showing on that page, the browser still sends out interaction data by means of so called "pings", URL parameters, etc.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Wow, a browser is making network connections, how dare it. Come on, these things are there so that if you are on "connected" to a network that require some registration, e.g. an airport, then you can actually be forwarded to that registration page. Like what do you even think, Mozilla people are sitting on top of all that sweet PING www.mozilla.org (3.161.119.172) 56(84) bytes of data. 64 bytes from server-3-161-119-172.vie50.r.cloudfront.net (3.161.119.172): icmp_seq=1 ttl=248 time=4.06 ms 64 bytes from server-3-161-119-172.vie50.r.cloudfront.net (3.161.119.172): icmp_seq=2 ttl=248 time=4.16 ms 64 bytes from server-3-161-119-172.vie50.r.cloudfront.net (3.161.119.172): icmp_seq=3 ttl=248 time=3.64 ms What the hell would they do with that?
    - krono 3y ago
      It makes these connections even when all the things mentioned in the official "How to stop Firefox from making automatic connections"[1] are disabled. This includes the captive portal detection you allude to. Regardless: The browser asks me if I allow it to make these connections. I tell it in unmistakable and irrevocable terms that I do not. The browser makes these connections anyway. The problem was never the connections or the contents of the data stream. You were aware of this before posting your comment, and yet you commented anyway. You are a troll. 1: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/how-stop-firefox-making-automatic-connections#w_network-detection https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/how-stop-firefox-making...

Firmwarrior 3y ago

Firefox doesn't get to wear the white hat if they're doing a bunch of shady stuff and saying it's for my own good. By your logic, realistically, Google invading my privacy isn't a particularly big deal since they know the value of the data they're harvesting and will guard it. And third party data brokers are actually just making my web experience more tailored and relevant, so I should let them have their way with me too. Everyone has a good reason to cram something into my business.

NegativeK 3y ago
There's an obvious difference between diagnostic data and data that's used to push ads to me. People might still object to diagnostic data and Firefox's handling of it, but it's disingenuous to state that they're the same.
- Firmwarrior 3y ago
  What is that obvious difference? It isn't obvious to me. They're both companies spying on people to improve their own products, ostensibly to the customers' benefit.
kaba0 3y ago
Ridiculous comment
- Firmwarrior 3y ago
  Everything I said is 100% true. There are a lot of people on this very site working in adtech who don't feel like they're doing anything wrong at all and use the exact same logic that people use to justify "telemetry". In their mind, they're making a better product and a wealthier, more productive world in the process. You have literally no logical or moral delimiter between how Firefox spies on me to improve Firefox and how Windows does it or how ad companies do it. I'm sure you'll move the goalpost now and strain yourself to come up with something ex post facto, let's hear it.
  - 3y ago

sneak 3y ago

> There is a big difference between tracking to try to understand how users are using a software or getting information on bugs and crashes, and tracking with the aim of monetizing personal data. I don't see the difference. In one case you are trying to improve your product using stolen data (which presumably results in your user sat scores and/or userbase going up and you continuing to receive a paycheck, ie monetization), and in the other case you are just selling the stolen data directly. In both cases you are taking private data without consent and using it to get money, or money-equivalent things (like a better product or more users). Technically and philosophically there is absolutely no distinguishing feature between opt-out "telemetry" and spyware. Both are using private user activity information, exfiltrated silently and without affirmative consent.

maccard 3y ago
Like the argument with copyright, it's not theft. It's only theft if the user is deprived of something. > In both cases you are taking private data without consent and using it to get money, or money-equivalent things (like a better product or more users) This is just word salad. Opting in is consent. You are absolutely free to opt out, by following the clear instructions on the website [0], and you can continue to use the software. Your rights are being deprived here. Secondly, "money equivalent things" is a reductionist argument. Not everything fits neatly into a black and white "right" and "wrong" bucket, and arguing it does is forgetting about the fact that technology doesn't exist in a vacuum any more than any other product or industry. > Technically and philosophically there is absolutely no distinguishing feature between opt-out "telemetry" and spyware. Technically there's no difference between me sending any kind of data to a remote service. Using rote logic to infer behaviour is a fallacy, and when I read comments like this I end up (unfortunately) coming away thinking "this person has no critical thinking skills". I'm aware it's an ad-hominem, but logically there's no other explanation other than you can't possibly understand anything other than your narrow world view. [0] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/telemetry-clientid https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/telemetry-clientid
taway1237 3y ago
Spyware exists primarily to steal data, firefox also has "some" other uses. Calling firefox "spyware" dilutes the meaning by implying it's somehow similar to actual spyware.

JohnFen 3y ago

> Telemetry and spyware are not the same thing Telemetry is spyware if it's done without the active informed consent of the user. What the collected data is actually used for isn't relevant. Consent is the relevant factor.

kaba0 3y ago
I'm sure it is written in some license agreement you implicitly accept by downloading/installing the software.
- sneak 3y ago
  That's not true. Firefox is free software. It is licensed under the MPL.