7 ms·

Yet another disturbing revelation about the NYPD brought to light by the STOP project. They're doing great work fighting an uphill battle -- they also tried (u

Yet another disturbing revelation about the NYPD brought to light by the STOP project. They're doing great work fighting an uphill battle -- they also tried (unsuccessfully, unfortunately) to keep Mayor Adams's NYPD from flying surveillance drones among the crowds, and even into private backyards, at J'Ouvert this weekend. (He got the idea from his recent trip to visit Netanyahu, who does all sorts of crazy stuff like that regularly.

Spooky23 3y ago
This type of stuff is the predicted consequence of the increase in surveillance and intelligence functions with state and local police that escalated after 9/11. You can’t give military style tools to poorly disciplined police forces without consequences. With the NSA or the Army, the problems are policy. With an org like NYPD, they don’t really have control of “the troops”, so who knows what’s happening.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  In America we have a "policy" against search without probable cause that the NSA consistently violates. Policy doesn't keep them in line.
  - hypeit 3y ago
    > Policy doesn't keep them in line. This is correct. It's also the argument for ending qualified immunity and defunding the police.
    - trinsic2 3y ago
      Does defunding the police mean stop having a police force in the country?
      - ryandrake 3y ago
        "Defunding" has unfortunately become a vague word that means different things to different activists. To me, it means removing the "military tools" that OP mentions, removing their incentives to escalate to violence and otherwise violate people's rights (or providing financial disincentives), and ideally, ultimately disarming them. Stop the money flow from taxpayers that encourages, enables, and results in all the bad behavior.
        willcipriano 3y ago
        [flagged]
        Volundr 3y ago
        Who exactly is calling for police reform, while simultaneously calling for expansion of the FBI, CIA, NSA? I haven't run into this confusing breed of activist.
        willcipriano 3y ago
        [flagged]
      - dfxm12 3y ago
        No. Further, the only people (with any serious power) really bringing up this idea are opponents of police reform trying to poison the well on the idea that police reform is needed. These people may even benefit from over policing wrt kickbacks from private prisons. For example, Marco Rubio [0] is a top recipient of money from the private prison lobby, and he's run attack ads wrongfully saying that his political opponents want to abolish police, and he himself ran on a platform pushing for larger police budgets. 0 - https://www.opensecrets.org/industries./indus.php?ind=G7000 https://www.opensecrets.org/industries./indus.php?ind=G7000
      - nkjnlknlk 3y ago
        No. That would be abolishing the police. Perhaps defunding eventually reveals that we should abolish the police. Perhaps not.
    - Spooky23 3y ago
      Defunding the police is a dumb slogan. Consolidating the police and professionalizing the police is a real answer. Also much harder.
      - micromacrofoot 3y ago
        It's dumb if you don't understand it. Most people take it as a knee-jerk literal "take all the money from the police." In practice most of the common explanations I've seen mean "take a lot of the money from the police and give it to people more qualified to do things that police are filling in for" — so things like social work, for example. This would also benefit the police, because they could focus on stopping and investigating actual crime. A common example... if there's a homeless, mentally ill, or otherwise distressed person rambling on the sidewalk in front of your house for an hour... in the US many people would call the police. This is a terrible application of force and innocent people have been shot this way. With properly staffed and funded social workers, someone could theoretically call them first, and then that person if needed could decide to escalate. So really "defund the police" in a pithy slogan — "reduce funding to the police so it can be directed to more purpose-fit response teams" doesn't quite roll off the tongue the same way. This same criticism is levied towards "black lives matter" — some take it as "only black lives matter" (often intentionally despite having it explained to them). So the response is "all lives matter" but the general intent is actually "black lives matter as well." Earlier "vote or die" was sometimes criticized in a warped way of "vote or we'll kill you" There's this strange insistence that political slogans be perfect or all-encompassing, which seems rather disingenuous.
        Spooky23 3y ago
        The slogan should be about to building out a public service that could accomplish the aims. The last line for direct assistance is at the county social services level. Those organizations don’t have the capability to scale. You’ll also be challenged as each county and state doesn’t necessarily want improve outcomes.
        micromacrofoot 3y ago
megabless123 3y ago
[flagged]
- parineum 3y ago
  They aren't.
  - 93po 3y ago
    They are
    - parineum 3y ago
      https://www.wcvb.com/article/worcester-police-officer-green-hill-pond-june-4-2021/36634137 https://www.wcvb.com/article/worcester-police-officer-green-...
      - ryaneager 3y ago
        So if I reply with 20 stories of cops murdering people does that counteract your point? It’s a statement about the job as a whole not the individual.
        parineum 3y ago
        > does that counteract your point No because the word "All" only requires one counterpoint to invalidate. > It’s a statement about the job as a whole not the individual A cop is an individual.
        93po 3y ago
        All cops are bad because they volunteered to work for a system that is inherently harmful, thereby perpetuating it.
  - micromacrofoot 3y ago
    There's a fundamental design flaw with the way American police forces operate that makes ACAB practically factual. Qualified immunity, civil asset forfeiture, etc — abuse and immunity from consequences are built into the system.
confoundcofound 3y ago
Have you lived near where they celebrate J’Ouvert? I used to live in that part of Brooklyn for 10 years and the festival always incited crime and violence in our immediate area. I’m not saying drones are the answer, but it is not by any means a totally harmless event. For those downvoting who don’t want to accept reality, below is an article from just a few days ago. It happens every year. https://www.amny.com/new-york/brooklyn/spate-of-violence-sullies-jouvert-and-west-indian-american-festivities-in-brooklyn-one-killed-cops/ https://www.amny.com/new-york/brooklyn/spate-of-violence-sul...
- MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
  Are those STOP guys the same currently being indicted on RICO charges?
- couchand 3y ago
  I was working a shift at the coop on Monday and was pleasantly surprised when two women in extravagantly oversized, feathered and sequined outfits came in on their way home from the parade. So yes, I do live in this community. I don't think anyone denies that there is often crime and violence in Flatbush, Brownsville, Crown Heights, and other neighborhoods around the parade route. In particular, it's a stretch to assume that everyone giving you downvotes "doesn't want to accept reality". For my part, I wonder about the most effective way to reduce incidences of violence in our community. I know that these are some of the neighborhoods that have systematically been denied investment, perhaps that has a part to play? Also, these neighborhoods have experienced the brunt of overpolicing in our community for quite a long time. Somehow I don't think that the answer is more police. I don't think the answer is normalizing this appalling and illegal move.
  - confoundcofound 3y ago
    What alternatives do you propose other than enforcement? What sorts of investments do you believe will directly and effectively curb violence and crime? What does underinvestment have to do with J’Ouvert crime specifically?
trinsic2 3y ago
It's my belief that the United States uses Israel to beta test their surveillance strategies for this country. There's definitely some kind of close autocratic relationship between the United States and Israel.

Spooky23 3y ago

This type of stuff is the predicted consequence of the increase in surveillance and intelligence functions with state and local police that escalated after 9/11. You can’t give military style tools to poorly disciplined police forces without consequences. With the NSA or the Army, the problems are policy. With an org like NYPD, they don’t really have control of “the troops”, so who knows what’s happening.

willcipriano 3y ago
In America we have a "policy" against search without probable cause that the NSA consistently violates. Policy doesn't keep them in line.
- hypeit 3y ago
  > Policy doesn't keep them in line. This is correct. It's also the argument for ending qualified immunity and defunding the police.
  - trinsic2 3y ago
    Does defunding the police mean stop having a police force in the country?
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      "Defunding" has unfortunately become a vague word that means different things to different activists. To me, it means removing the "military tools" that OP mentions, removing their incentives to escalate to violence and otherwise violate people's rights (or providing financial disincentives), and ideally, ultimately disarming them. Stop the money flow from taxpayers that encourages, enables, and results in all the bad behavior.
      - willcipriano 3y ago
        [flagged]
        Volundr 3y ago
        Who exactly is calling for police reform, while simultaneously calling for expansion of the FBI, CIA, NSA? I haven't run into this confusing breed of activist.
        willcipriano 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - dfxm12 3y ago
      No. Further, the only people (with any serious power) really bringing up this idea are opponents of police reform trying to poison the well on the idea that police reform is needed. These people may even benefit from over policing wrt kickbacks from private prisons. For example, Marco Rubio [0] is a top recipient of money from the private prison lobby, and he's run attack ads wrongfully saying that his political opponents want to abolish police, and he himself ran on a platform pushing for larger police budgets. 0 - https://www.opensecrets.org/industries./indus.php?ind=G7000 https://www.opensecrets.org/industries./indus.php?ind=G7000
    - nkjnlknlk 3y ago
      No. That would be abolishing the police. Perhaps defunding eventually reveals that we should abolish the police. Perhaps not.
  - Spooky23 3y ago
    Defunding the police is a dumb slogan. Consolidating the police and professionalizing the police is a real answer. Also much harder.
    - micromacrofoot 3y ago
      It's dumb if you don't understand it. Most people take it as a knee-jerk literal "take all the money from the police." In practice most of the common explanations I've seen mean "take a lot of the money from the police and give it to people more qualified to do things that police are filling in for" — so things like social work, for example. This would also benefit the police, because they could focus on stopping and investigating actual crime. A common example... if there's a homeless, mentally ill, or otherwise distressed person rambling on the sidewalk in front of your house for an hour... in the US many people would call the police. This is a terrible application of force and innocent people have been shot this way. With properly staffed and funded social workers, someone could theoretically call them first, and then that person if needed could decide to escalate. So really "defund the police" in a pithy slogan — "reduce funding to the police so it can be directed to more purpose-fit response teams" doesn't quite roll off the tongue the same way. This same criticism is levied towards "black lives matter" — some take it as "only black lives matter" (often intentionally despite having it explained to them). So the response is "all lives matter" but the general intent is actually "black lives matter as well." Earlier "vote or die" was sometimes criticized in a warped way of "vote or we'll kill you" There's this strange insistence that political slogans be perfect or all-encompassing, which seems rather disingenuous.
      - Spooky23 3y ago
        The slogan should be about to building out a public service that could accomplish the aims. The last line for direct assistance is at the county social services level. Those organizations don’t have the capability to scale. You’ll also be challenged as each county and state doesn’t necessarily want improve outcomes.
        micromacrofoot 3y ago

megabless123 3y ago

[flagged]

parineum 3y ago
They aren't.
- 93po 3y ago
  They are
  - parineum 3y ago
    https://www.wcvb.com/article/worcester-police-officer-green-hill-pond-june-4-2021/36634137 https://www.wcvb.com/article/worcester-police-officer-green-...
    - ryaneager 3y ago
      So if I reply with 20 stories of cops murdering people does that counteract your point? It’s a statement about the job as a whole not the individual.
      - parineum 3y ago
        > does that counteract your point No because the word "All" only requires one counterpoint to invalidate. > It’s a statement about the job as a whole not the individual A cop is an individual.
        93po 3y ago
        All cops are bad because they volunteered to work for a system that is inherently harmful, thereby perpetuating it.
- micromacrofoot 3y ago
  There's a fundamental design flaw with the way American police forces operate that makes ACAB practically factual. Qualified immunity, civil asset forfeiture, etc — abuse and immunity from consequences are built into the system.

confoundcofound 3y ago

Have you lived near where they celebrate J’Ouvert? I used to live in that part of Brooklyn for 10 years and the festival always incited crime and violence in our immediate area. I’m not saying drones are the answer, but it is not by any means a totally harmless event. For those downvoting who don’t want to accept reality, below is an article from just a few days ago. It happens every year. https://www.amny.com/new-york/brooklyn/spate-of-violence-sullies-jouvert-and-west-indian-american-festivities-in-brooklyn-one-killed-cops/ https://www.amny.com/new-york/brooklyn/spate-of-violence-sul...

MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
Are those STOP guys the same currently being indicted on RICO charges?
couchand 3y ago
I was working a shift at the coop on Monday and was pleasantly surprised when two women in extravagantly oversized, feathered and sequined outfits came in on their way home from the parade. So yes, I do live in this community. I don't think anyone denies that there is often crime and violence in Flatbush, Brownsville, Crown Heights, and other neighborhoods around the parade route. In particular, it's a stretch to assume that everyone giving you downvotes "doesn't want to accept reality". For my part, I wonder about the most effective way to reduce incidences of violence in our community. I know that these are some of the neighborhoods that have systematically been denied investment, perhaps that has a part to play? Also, these neighborhoods have experienced the brunt of overpolicing in our community for quite a long time. Somehow I don't think that the answer is more police. I don't think the answer is normalizing this appalling and illegal move.
- confoundcofound 3y ago
  What alternatives do you propose other than enforcement? What sorts of investments do you believe will directly and effectively curb violence and crime? What does underinvestment have to do with J’Ouvert crime specifically?

trinsic2 3y ago

It's my belief that the United States uses Israel to beta test their surveillance strategies for this country. There's definitely some kind of close autocratic relationship between the United States and Israel.