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also the introductions shortly mentions the "Chinese walled site of Pingliangtai". So the city wall were also planned and built in a decentralized fashion, all

also the introductions shortly mentions the "Chinese walled site of Pingliangtai". So the city wall were also planned and built in a decentralized fashion, all by the community? James C Scott used to say, that city walls were all designed to keep their own people from running away, sort of like the Berlin Wall, see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2ukte-je8k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2ukte-je8k

notahacker 3y ago
It also describes it as being unlike other neighbouring towns...
pjc50 3y ago
The claim that city walls were always some sort of prison is going to need extraordinary evidence, not a video.
- MichaelMoser123 3y ago
  the speaker is a scholar, so he has some authority in the field of anthropology. See his wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_C._Scott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_C._Scott He also wrote a well known book on the subject: 'against the grain', where this argument is put forth. Wikipedia has a summary of the book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Grain:_A_Deep_History_of_the_Earliest_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Grain:_A_Deep_Hist...
  - fsloth 3y ago
    Note that James C Scott speaks specifically of the very deep pre-historical middle east. I'm not sure if the conclusions are generalizable to China, thousands of years later. There are examples of large scale public engineering works with and without observable central authority throughout archaeological record around the globe. So just "having walls" is not sufficient implication of central authority attempting to control the population. IMO in the specific example of Against the grain the central authority thesis is pretty solidly framed. But, it does not aim to be a generalizable theory, nor IMO should it be viewed as such.
    - MichaelMoser123 3y ago
      The Sumerian city-states were past the prehistorical period. History started with the invention of writing, and they did invent record keeping and writing. Now it always possible to argue against the applicability of any rule, there are exceptions to rules. However here you would also need to give some argument, as to why this kind of reasoning could not be applied to this case. I could understand a community getting behind the construction of a water pipe, a place of worship (or even an operating system for personal computers). However a city wall is a slightly different kind of entity - this one is defining the boundaries of authority, it's a kind of us versus them entity.
ralfd 3y ago
> James C Scott used to say, that city walls were all designed to keep their own people from running away, Interesting thought and depending on time period and culture I can imagine that. But this is not how city walls were described in classic greek text? (Case in point: Sparta, famously the only greek city without city walls, had tons of slaves) or how cities worked in medieval age (where "city air" freed you from serfdom). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtluft_macht_frei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtluft_macht_frei Also walls build on defensive terrain (hills) point to protection as its usage. There is the case that walls are useful to tax trade because you can funnel wares only through a gate which doubles as a custom house.
- rgblambda 3y ago
  >Sparta, famously the only greek city without city walls, had tons of slaves Didn't the Helots live outside the city of Sparta, and mainly worked the fields?
  - smogcutter 3y ago
    Regardless, parent’s point is that there’s no wall keeping them in. As an aside, the Spartans famously claimed that they were their wall. But I wonder: Spartan construction was very simple, and they despised those with expertise or a craft (the small class of free noncitizens who along with the helots did all productive work). Maybe the truth is that a project with the scope & complexity of a good city wall was simply beyond them. They couldn’t do it, so they told themselves a sour grapes story about how they never wanted a wall to begin with. Just a hunch but I like it.
- Ebree 3y ago
  Slavs had walls surrounding settlement excluding side connected to river.. it depends what trading system your culture prefers.. how open or closed is. Goths in Spain completely banned commerce outside of one designated spot. I'm not sure if they came up with this because of local... circumstances or brought it with them. Anyway it didn't help them much, quite opposite...

notahacker 3y ago

It also describes it as being unlike other neighbouring towns...

pjc50 3y ago

The claim that city walls were always some sort of prison is going to need extraordinary evidence, not a video.

MichaelMoser123 3y ago
the speaker is a scholar, so he has some authority in the field of anthropology. See his wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_C._Scott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_C._Scott He also wrote a well known book on the subject: 'against the grain', where this argument is put forth. Wikipedia has a summary of the book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Grain:_A_Deep_History_of_the_Earliest_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_the_Grain:_A_Deep_Hist...
- fsloth 3y ago
  Note that James C Scott speaks specifically of the very deep pre-historical middle east. I'm not sure if the conclusions are generalizable to China, thousands of years later. There are examples of large scale public engineering works with and without observable central authority throughout archaeological record around the globe. So just "having walls" is not sufficient implication of central authority attempting to control the population. IMO in the specific example of Against the grain the central authority thesis is pretty solidly framed. But, it does not aim to be a generalizable theory, nor IMO should it be viewed as such.
  - MichaelMoser123 3y ago
    The Sumerian city-states were past the prehistorical period. History started with the invention of writing, and they did invent record keeping and writing. Now it always possible to argue against the applicability of any rule, there are exceptions to rules. However here you would also need to give some argument, as to why this kind of reasoning could not be applied to this case. I could understand a community getting behind the construction of a water pipe, a place of worship (or even an operating system for personal computers). However a city wall is a slightly different kind of entity - this one is defining the boundaries of authority, it's a kind of us versus them entity.

ralfd 3y ago

> James C Scott used to say, that city walls were all designed to keep their own people from running away, Interesting thought and depending on time period and culture I can imagine that. But this is not how city walls were described in classic greek text? (Case in point: Sparta, famously the only greek city without city walls, had tons of slaves) or how cities worked in medieval age (where "city air" freed you from serfdom). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtluft_macht_frei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtluft_macht_frei Also walls build on defensive terrain (hills) point to protection as its usage. There is the case that walls are useful to tax trade because you can funnel wares only through a gate which doubles as a custom house.

rgblambda 3y ago
>Sparta, famously the only greek city without city walls, had tons of slaves Didn't the Helots live outside the city of Sparta, and mainly worked the fields?
- smogcutter 3y ago
  Regardless, parent’s point is that there’s no wall keeping them in. As an aside, the Spartans famously claimed that they were their wall. But I wonder: Spartan construction was very simple, and they despised those with expertise or a craft (the small class of free noncitizens who along with the helots did all productive work). Maybe the truth is that a project with the scope & complexity of a good city wall was simply beyond them. They couldn’t do it, so they told themselves a sour grapes story about how they never wanted a wall to begin with. Just a hunch but I like it.
Ebree 3y ago
Slavs had walls surrounding settlement excluding side connected to river.. it depends what trading system your culture prefers.. how open or closed is. Goths in Spain completely banned commerce outside of one designated spot. I'm not sure if they came up with this because of local... circumstances or brought it with them. Anyway it didn't help them much, quite opposite...