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A look inside a Sharia Courtroom
- Georgelemental 3y agoMore good reporting on Taliban Afghanistan: https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/02/23/the-west-lives-on-in-the-talibans-afghanistan/ https://www.palladiummag.com/2023/02/23/the-west-lives-on-in...
- pewpew2020 3y agoWhy are they whitewashing taliban's practices as a misunderstanding?
- boxed 3y agoTolerance of different cultures, or moral relativism. Which makes i pretty clear how those things have quite hard limits to their applicability.
- Loughla 3y agoThat's fascinating. It sounds like the system works as long as the judge really is an honest broker, and above corruption. And while it doesn't sound great, it sounds way better than the tribal customs they're used to. Based on my limited experience with human people is that any position that relies on the individual acting in good faith and not being corrupt will immediately attract people who are unbelievably corruptable. So that's probably not great long term. Subsequently, I don't know if it's me being paranoid, a new spin being allowed, or just seeing behind the actual veil now, but I've been seeing more "maybe the taliban aren't so bad" stories lately. Interesting.
- dkersten 3y ago> It sounds like the system works as long as the judge really is an honest broker, and above corruption. Well… a dictatorship works too if the leader is above corruption. The reality is that this is not usually the case.
- EduardoBautista 3y agoAs someone from Latin America, non-corrupt democracies are not the norm either. Very few democracies can be considered free of significant corruption.
- rewmie 3y ago> but I've been seeing more "maybe the taliban aren't so bad" stories lately. Interesting. That's weird. The last newspiece I read about the Taliban is how female suicide is spiking. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/28/despair-is-settling-in-female-suicides-on-rise-in-talibans-afghanistan https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/28/despair-is-set... What weird kind of revisionist news feed are you following?
- ta1243 3y agoYes the narrative I see is "The Taliban are awful as even the most pessimistic person said but we can't do anything about it" This is of course a different spin from 20 years ago when it was "Lets deliver democracy and beer, America, Fuck Yeah!", but it's similar.
- rewmie 3y ago> This is of course a different spin from 20 years ago when it was "Lets deliver democracy and beer, America, Fuck Yeah!", but it's similar. That's not correlated with reality at all. From the start the spin was and always has been that Afghanistan was a safe haven for violent international terrorist organizations which were behind a string of terrorist attacks worldwide, and these organizations would be stopped by eliminating their safe havens and the regime that supported or enabled them to operate from their territory.
- ta1243 3y agosome slight hyperbole of course. But the view that in the post cold war environment America should "spread democracy" was hardly a fringe https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/why-united-states-should-spread-democracy https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/why-united-states-s... The 2002 National Security strategy was explicitly about spreading US style democracy and free trade to countries including Afghanistan. "As we pursue the terrorists in Afghanistan, we will continue to work ... to rebuild Afghanistan so that it will never again abuse its people, threaten its neighbors, and provide a haven for terrorists. " This view was certainly championed and repeated across opinion posts throughout the western press. Now the view is "we failed in that, and it sucks, but we can't make it work". This of course was what many on the left were saying, but articles like https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2006/12/21/democracy-grows-from-the-barrel-of-a-gun https://www.economist.com/democracy-in-america/2006/12/21/de... "So actually, as far as I can see, the way that America uses its military power will be quite central to any spreading of democracy in the Middle East. If you can be victorious, kind and smart, then people are going to want to find out how you did it. And I can't see why Fukuyama would want to argue to the contrary. " There were always contrary views of course, many in academia were saying you can't force a cultural change. Those were reported a little, but in general it was very much pro-intervention.
- hotdogscout 3y ago>That's fascinating. It sounds like the system works as long as the judge really is an honest broker, and above corruption. The issue is human rights and those who need it. People who do not believe in religion, women who want equal freedoms as men, lgbt people who don't want to be executed, etc. Theocracies like any authoritarian dictatorship can "work" in providing the basic needs of it's devoted citizens.
- sturza 3y agoIn Afghanistan, it's not just a conflict between the West and the Taliban. It's also a tug-of-war between tribal traditions and religious rules. Surprisingly, the women, often seen as sidelined, might be the ones to watch as they navigate and challenge both systems.
- rewmie 3y ago> Surprisingly, the women, often seen as sidelined, might be the ones to watch as they navigate and challenge both systems. As I posted in another reply, female suicide is spiking in Afghanistan. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/28/despair-is-settling-in-female-suicides-on-rise-in-talibans-afghanistan https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/28/despair-is-set... If women are Afghanistan's canary, the country seems to be spiraling down a shit sink.
- watwut 3y ago> often seen as sidelined They ARE sidelined. The few schools for them ARE closing. Their already limited means of feeding themselves ARE becoming more and more limited. There are some protesters and advocates, mostly in urban centers. These woman do take a lot of risk, are cracked on, get tortured.
- marsa 3y agoyes and if i'm reading it correctly, the article says banning women from schools is a remnant of tribal law, which is why they favour sharia law -- the lesser evil apparently given the circumstances -- as crazy as it may sound to out secular ears
- watwut 3y agoWhat I am talking about is that there were schools in Afghanistan that were closed after Taliban came to power. Some teachers that continued to teach girls were tortured and imprisoned or executed by Taliban. It was Sharia court that made them go to prison or get sentenced to violent punishment. That Sharia court was given power by Taliban. It was not tribal court that did that, it was Sharia court.
- overkill28 3y agoI'm anyways skeptical of those who refer to "the media" or "the West" as a single entity. "Much of the press saw U.S. troops as defending a pro-Western populace against a deeply unpopular Taliban insurgency. But Blue quickly realized that, in the insurgent heartlands, which lie in rural areas, the story was much more nuanced. To begin with, U.S.-occupied Afghanistan had been a divided realm; Afghans living in areas of relative calm tended to oppose the Taliban, but those living in war-racked regions often saw the Taliban as a better alternative to the corrupt U.S.-backed government. The Western media missed this story." Is there an example of such a story (that describes near universal support for the US backed Afghan government and ignores the attitudes of rural areas) from any of the newspapers he mentions (WSJ, New York Times, Washington Post)? I tried searching for "NYTimes rural Afghanistan 2019" and this is what I got: "As American diplomats push for a peace deal with the Taliban to end the 17-year war, a strong voice of protest, largely coming from urban centers, has been cautioning against a rushed deal that could endanger some of the gains of past years. Those include women’s right to work and education, as well as an independent news media. On the other hand, however, is the nearly half of the country that is caught between the two sides of the seesawing conflict. The constant fighting has deprived these rural Afghans of most of the improvements — schools and institutions — at the center of concerns over peace negotiations. And the voices of those Afghans are notably underrepresented in the debate."
- mrwnmonm 3y ago[dead]
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- hotdogscout 3y ago>Yet nowhere in any standard interpretation of religious law does it state that women may not work or get an education. Women are not allowed to work outside the home according to the Quran, there are exceptions but this is not generally allowed.[1] Anand Gopal is very anti-US so he seems to be sugar coating things a bit. [1]https://islamqa.info/en/answers/106815/guidelines-on-women-working-outside-the-home https://islamqa.info/en/answers/106815/guidelines-on-women-w...
- mrwnmonm 3y ago[dead]
- TheColorYellow 3y agoThe preceding lines in this surah explicitly mention this is addressed to wives of the Prophet who are unlike other women. The answer in your link even explicitly mentions this is their interpretation outside of what is explicitly written. Islam is no different from the other Abrahamic religions. It is the culture of organized Islam that is uniquely violent, conservative, and extreme in its views today. But please, DYOR.
- dj_mc_merlin 3y agoReligion is always interpreted by people and how they interpret and act on the text becomes the religion itself. If you read the Bible, you'll find Christians don't follow most of the stuff written there and do follow a lot of stuff that is nowhere to be found in the bible (the Trinity, for example). You can't really separate the religion from its culture is what I'm saying. If you go to into a cave and practice your own pure form of Islam, that is commendable, but has no impact on the rest of the world and thus isn't worthy of discussion.
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- notadancer 3y agoI'm surprised this was absent from the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi Bacha bazi is the systematic rape and abuse of young boys by Afghan men. The Taliban banned it and killed rapists when they found them. This was one source of the Taliban's initial popularity. The US hired child rapists to be Afghan army and police commanders. When they engaged in bacha bazi, US troops were told not to interferee. Numerous US soldiers were discharged or relieved for beating Afghan "allies" who kept little boys as sex slaves. Some boys were even raped on US military bases. This is all documented on the Wiki article and has been common knowledge among those who care to know for more than a decade.
- nailer 3y agoAfghanistan is very messed up: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
- mpsprd 3y agoPederasty was practiced in many cultures. It's indeed messed up but I wouldn't say it's peculiar to Afghanistan
- rewmie 3y agoOP stated that Afghanistan is messed up, and substantiated the claims by pointing a pervasive custom of sexual abuse of children. Whataboutisms do not change the validity of such claim. I don't know what point you thought you were making.
- nonethewiser 3y agoAnd why? What would motivate someone to rebut the mild claim that its messed up?
- rewmie 3y ago> What would motivate someone to rebut It was not a rebuttal. It was pure whataboutisms. > the mild claim Systematic sexual abuse is not mild, and it's way more than a mere claim: it's well and thoroughly documented.
- mpsprd 3y agoI'm absolutely not trying to say say its not messed up. I was trying to say that these (horrible) practices do not characterize Afghan culture itself as they are pervasive in the world. I don't think this is whataboutism. Honestly re-reading myself I now think of many cultures where it was never an occurrence, so I don't really agree with myself anymore. Thank you for making me rethink it.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
- justinclift 3y agoSeems to be missing something quite important: The Western media missed this story. Part of the reason was that the war-torn countryside had been difficult—though not impossible—for foreign reporters to access, so the scale of the crimes committed by U.S. forces and their allies went undocumented. Sure, that's "part" of the story. The rest of the story is that if you make the crimes of the US forces public, then the US government will fuck you and your family over, and by extension the people around you. Even if you're a non-US national living in a completely separate, supposedly "allied" country. The most prominent example of course is Julian Assange.
- boxed 3y agoIt's mostly whataboutism though. Similar to how closet nazis attack Israel. There is an enormous moral difference between the US behaves and the Taliban behaves. The US for example cares and are ashamed of the war crimes you speak of. The Taliban CELEBRATE their war crimes, beheadings, lynchings of women.
- zogrodea 3y agoThat Frankie Boyle quote seems relevant here. “Not only will America come to your country and kill all your people, but what's worse is that they'll come back 20 years later and make a movie about how killing your people made their soldiers feel sad.”
- boxed 3y agoOn the other hand, look at Korea. In hindsight it seems pretty clear that it was a huge loss to humanity that the US didn't push further north. And of course, look at Afghanistan today.
- zogrodea 3y agoShould the US have stayed involved or gotten involved with Afghanistan? Why? What good has come from it?
- sandworm101 3y agoA Talib courtroom. This is not representative of sharia courtrooms generally. This akin to looking at a drumhead courts marshal and describing it as a "Christian" commonlaw court. The common law could learn a lot from Sharia law, just not the punishments. (Although even those harsh punishments are rather similar to common law punishments of not long ago.) Want a trial in your own language? Want a codified standard of proof for specific crimes? You won't get those under the common law. You would in Sharia.
- boxed 3y ago> Want a trial in your own language? Want a codified standard of proof for specific crimes? You won't get those under the common law. You would in Sharia. Oh, so if I show up in a random Sharia court in Saudi Arabia they will switch the entire court proceeding to Swedish will they?
- sandworm101 3y agoYou could make that argument and many experts would say that you have a right to a translator. That isn't a thing under the common law. Many countries do provide translators, but that isn't a right across the board and for centuries people were executed in England without access to translators.
- boxed 3y agoYour whataboutism skills are lacking.
- notadancer 3y ago>The common law could learn a lot from Sharia law If you're curious to compare and live in the UK, just pop into your local Sharia court. Between 30-85 such courts are estimated to exist in Britain. They generally call themselves "councils" rather than courts but sometimes the mask slips: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/applying-sharia-law-in-england-and-wales-independent-review https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/applying-sharia-l... >Common misconceptions around sharia councils often perpetuate owing to the use of incorrect terms such as referring to them as ‘courts’ rather than councils or to their members as ‘judges’. These terms are used both in media articles but also on occasion by the sharia councils themselves.
- boxed 3y agoI do agree with the fundamental assertion that American politicians and news organizations refused to accept the reality of religious fundamentalism in this part of the world. But it seems pretty ironic coming from The New Yorker who have been a big part of driving this confused worldview.
- friend_and_foe 3y agoI didn't get a look inside a sharia court at all. I'm going to go ahead and call this a misleading title.
- wouterjanl 3y agoYou should watch the documentary. The first minute of the documentary is literally footage of a hearing in a sharia court.
- friend_and_foe 3y agoYeah I'd do that, but I prefer to read than watch.