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The subtitle frustrates me because we, as in humans, caused this. From what I can tell, the fungus was introduced to North America, almost certainly by humans o
by bmitc 3y ago
The subtitle frustrates me because we, as in humans, caused this. From what I can tell, the fungus was introduced to North America, almost certainly by humans or due to humans. It's a good example of the fact that to respect nature, you need to stay out of it.
- lobochrome 3y agoAnd - get rid of all humans is then your answer?
- bmitc 3y agoJust how exactly did you reach that wild conclusion? I didn't say anything remotely close to that. I don't even know how to respond.
- tuyiown 3y ago> that to respect nature, you need to stay out of it. Even without mentioning the human activity and presence is nature or not, you don't give boundaries to this statement, eg, are agricultural fields should also stay out of nature ? So calling out that you might imply to eradicate humanity is perfectly valid, and some clarification is certainly needed to understand what you actually mean. (I'm curious to know too)
- bmitc 3y agoStaying out of something implies staying in somewhere else, not disappearing entirely. Taking a statement to some hyberbolic extreme is not discussing in good faith. Eradicating humanity is a ridiculous conclusion when I basically meant stay on the trails and reduce our expansion into still wild-ish areas and reconsider our existing presence in some areas and habits. Your mention of agricultural fields is a much more reasonable one to think about and consider. From one side, bats are an important part of our agricultural. So this disease will affect us through losing their beneficial contribution to our agriculture. On the other hand, it is pretty well known that our agricultural practices are quite detrimental to the soil and ecosystems. I don't know what to about that, but one way is that fields often create boundaries between open fields and wooded areas, which are great places for bat houses.
- lokimedes 3y agoA slightly more Darwinistic conclusion would be that we are judging the effects of our biological success on too short a timescale. The fungus is obviously thriving in its new habitat.
- bmitc 3y agoI don't know what you mean by that. These things always have downstream effects, often quite negative. Bats are an important species that help keep insect and pest populations in check in addition to pollinating plants and spreading seeds.
- lokimedes 3y agoI mean that our activity is the vector for another organism’s survival by spreading to a new habitat. That is, according to natural selection, how nature works. It is on the other hand odd that we humans believe ourselves to be exempt from evolution, and therefore in this case, feel guilt from being the mode of transportation for a mushroom, and in so many other cases, ignoring and even denying, the we too evolve through selection and evolutionary pressures. I’m no fan of invasive species, but who are we to judge the migrants looking for a better life in the new world?
- misja111 3y agoThat's a weird conclusion. Aren't humans part of nature as well? And how would we stay out of nature? By forbidding anyone to travel?
- bmitc 3y agoWhat is weird about it? Every square inch of this Earth is ours? Of course we're part of nature, as a whole. I didn't say otherwise. I don't know why commenters are making wild and hyperbolic conclusions from what I said. We have our cities, towns, and parks. A lot of so-called nature lovers love being in nature, but it's somewhat selfish as its harmful to nature and not everyone can do that. What I meant by "staying out of nature", which I thought would be relatively clear given the context, is to stay out of anything not explicitly designated as a park and trail. Even then, it is questionable whether our parks aren't harmful. When I've been to parks, I see less wildlife than I do in my own local yard and woods. It's likely to the heavy foot traffic and noise. And yes, maybe it is time to reconsder our travel patterns considering how harmful they are to us, other animals, and the world at large. We can't have everything our way and expect no consequences.
- misja111 3y ago> Of course we're part of nature, as a whole. I didn't say otherwise. You said "to respect nature, you need to stay out of it.". This implies that we are not part of nature; there is no way to stay out of nature if we are part of nature ourselves. Or well there is one way, and that is to get rid of ourselves altogether. But I suppose this is not what you meant.
- bmitc 3y agoGleaning context is important. Even a single cave spelunker or rock climber or hiker could have spread this. It seems unlikely it was a simple tourist as the article implies, as it seems to me that one would need to have a bit more overlap with where bats roost and rest.
- 3y ago
- xnzakg 3y agoMeh, as much as I agree with the idea to avoid helping invasive species spread, it's not like they need human intervention. Apparently even monkeys have managed to raft across the ocean[0], and considering how much more resilient the fungus is according to the article, ilI suppose spores could probably even catch a ride on a bird? 0: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/premium/article/unlikely-survival-of-ancient-monkeys-swept-across-the-atlantic-ocean https://www.nationalgeographic.com/premium/article/unlikely-...
- bmitc 3y agoWhat bird species migrates across the Atlantic Ocean? One off examples of other animals doesn't hold a candle to the damage done by humans in spreading both invasive animals and plants worldwide, both intentionally and unintentionally.
- zimpenfish 3y ago> What bird species migrates across the Atlantic Ocean? According to [0], linked from [1], anywhere up to 297 species. [0] http://datazone.birdlife.org/userfiles/file/sowb/flyways/4_East_Atlantic_Factsheet.pdf http://datazone.birdlife.org/userfiles/file/sowb/flyways/4_E... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Atlantic_Flyway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Atlantic_Flyway
- bmitc 3y agoThanks. I wonder if any of those birds share habitats with bats on the East coast of North America or where the fungus is located in Europe or are suspected of being connected with carrying the fungus.
- Borrible 3y agoAs a member of the most successful invasive species on this planet, its low orbits and for a few hours of the moon, far be it from me to throw stones in the glass house.
- loupol 3y agoBut we are a part of nature as well, and have no choice but to interact with it. There is no such thing as a perfect ecosystem equilibrium (If only because of entropy), life is constantly evolving, whether there are humans involved or not. I understand your point and frustration though, as striving to preserve diversity (of species and ecosystems) is good because they are a valuable source of knowledge and resilience. And as a species we've done rather poorly in that regard, especially in the last century.
- bmitc 3y agoWe do have a choice in how we interact with it, though. We will end up paying for all of this and already are. Entropy is what it is, but there's no need for us to speed it up.
- robertlagrant 3y agoWe only pay because we are part of nature.
- bmitc 3y agoThat wasn't under debate.